Legacy S Concept @ Tokyo Auto Salon

[chenc544]

Didn't see this posted anywhere, sorry if it's a repost.
Looks like a Legacy with bunch of STI parts. If someone could translate the webpage it would be greatly appreciated.

http://www.subaru.jp/as2008/e_car/details/details7.html

I think the fender vent looks good on the leggy but it has been way overdone lately on all the tuner/concept cars. There is even a fake one on the silly '08 Focus... Anyway discuss away.

http://www.subaru.jp/as2008/e_car/details/img/ph_details7_01.jpg

There is also the Impreza NA Concept by STI.

http://www.subaru.jp/as2008/e_car/details/img/ph_details8_01.jpg

[sirsimon]

Hmmm...maybe not so on the fender "vent".

[DiscoWagon]

Looks like a Buick :lol: Love those brakes though!

[edkwon]

an NA sti...how pointless.

[g0ndor]

google translation...
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.subaru.jp/as2008/e_car/index.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.subaru.jp/as2008/e_car/%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

[G.T.Subie]

an NA sti...how pointless.
and we can't get the Legacy STI

[Mines]

unless its a small block v888888

I love those brakes too,
too bad they cost so much

[Mines]

carbon fiber front lip!

[G.T.Subie]

unless its a small block v888888

I love those brakes too,
too bad they cost so much
That Impreza is a V8 :eek:

[jmfspecb]

Love the grill.

[Mines]

That Impreza is a V8 :eek:

no, just saying

[G.T.Subie]

oh :lol:

[dr. pepper]

I bet Japan will have a great time with those cars if they are put into production. Not like we want a nice Legacy or anything.

[IwannaSportSedan]

non turbo STI = WEAKSAUCE!!!!

Legacy S... I love the 'S' moniker, and have always liked it on Porsche. I have wanted to call my car a Legacy Turbo S for a while...

Now with a sliver of credibility from Japan, maybe I can! :D

Chrome REs are a bit much. The three-intake 3.0R Spec B front bumper is cool, and the STI mesh grille is VERY cool. Heaven forbid we get some good brakes.

Fender vent seems tacked on. hardly worthy. heat management might not be a bad idea, though. I would have liked fender flares better, though.

Face it, though. SOA would love to ignore the Legacy to extinction, if FHI would let them, but they can't seem to bite the bullet to kill the only real sedan they have left.

I have lost most hope that SOA can support the Legacy properly at this point. They aren't only not keeping up, they are backsliding with fewer options, fewer colors, and fewer bodystyles.

[Mines]

those aren't chrome re's its just the lighting of the picture

[IwannaSportSedan]

Plasma, or whatever... they somehow seem a little "bling" to me. silver painted wheels, even on the RE's would be better, IMHO.

[Viber]

I dont see what the big deal is. Nothing special about this car. Not every car made needs ricer treatment.

If Subaru wants to do an S model along the same lines as BMW's M series fine. I am all for expensive powerhouse special editions. Mazda does it with the very limited MazdaSpeed line. At least there is an actual performance boost though. But to just rice out the legacy with silly badges and vents like a Socal teenager with mommy's credit card...no thanks

I hope Subaru does come out with a real Legacy STI in the future. That could get scary.

[chenc544]

At least there is an actual performance boost though. But to just rice out the legacy with silly badges and vents like a Socal teenager with mommy's credit card...no thanks


You should read the translated page before making that statement.

"The ultimate Grand Touring Car" development concept, the STI is sensible to give presents that can run supreme ultimate legacy. 2.5L turbo engine equipped with a dedicated, high - and low-turnover FURATTOTORUKU rotation from the area at the same time achieve more powerful."
I assume that means STI has managed to increase the power, maybe with a new turbo...

"12. Strengthen Transmission" Upgraded transmission

"14. Sports muffler" STI CBE

"15. Oncoming F 6 pot BURENBOBUREKI" 6 pot front calipers

"16. Pot 2 R oncoming BURENBOBUREKI" 2 pot rear calipers

"17. PISUDISUKUROTA F2 (Φ340)" 13.4" front rotors

"18. DISUKUROTA R (Φ316)" 12.4" rear rotors

"20. Coil spring" Upgraded STI springs

There are also bunch of other things that didn't really translated. I'm sure some of them are performance parts too not just bling.

[chenc544]

Plasma, or whatever... they somehow seem a little "bling" to me. silver painted wheels, even on the RE's would be better, IMHO.

Yeah, not really feeling the RE's. The new wheels on the '08 STI would be nice. The dark gray version would have look nice on that silver Leggy. BTW, anybody know if the 2008 STI uses 5X100 or 5X114?

http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee9fbf2/cmd.233/embedded..ee9fbfe

[IwannaSportSedan]

pretty sure that it is 5x114.3.

But with 6 and *2 (rear)* piston brakes and an STI badge, maybe that Legacy would be compatible, and has 5x114.3 hubs. I wish the Legacy had that STI setup.

The only superfluous thing on the JDM Legacy S, is the fender vents. (and that probably just a new thing to slightly parallel the chrome stripe on the STI fender, shown above)

STI is a reputable tuning arm of Subaru, and not an aftermarket tuner. I welcome their badging on the Legacy, and wish there were an official way to put that on a US Legacy, along with most of that equipment.

Sans bright finish wheels, and the fender vents, that Legacy S (I keep wanting to call it "Legacy Turbo S") is a nice option, and nicely free of large amounts of "rice", actually. It has no body kit, aside from the front bumper, which is a piece from the 3.0R Spec B, IIRC. It has no large wings, or big flashy trim, aside from those bright wheels.

Keep in mind, it is japanese, and this is their option to get the 2.5 Turbo engine. They normally get the 2.0 Twin Scroll turbo in their GT and GT spec B.

I think I am going to use this as a way to build a Legacy Turbo S out of my '05. (pie in the sky, at this point. I have no modding cash right now...)

-08 STI turbo, intercooler, and intake, and compatible AP map.
-Aftermarket downpipe to my Megan Racing/Magnaflow hybrid CBE
-Brembo 6-piston and 2-piston brakes
-GT Spec B or STI 6MT and compatible Torsen rear diff.
-Bilsteins, top hats, and Ion Springs, with upgraded anti-roll bars and links. (actually plausible, later this year)
-Cusco suspension/subframe bracing.

-JDM Spec B bumper conversion with K2Gear front bumper cover, black CF/mesh grille, with 06-current STI grille badge.

-07-08 JDM rear bumper (possibly also K2 07-08 compatible bumper cover) and tail light conversion, with rear foglights. (fog has been so thick in the midwest on several occaisions since christmas, that I really want rear fogs now.)

Outback/Corazon fender flares without the outback's body cladding, all painted to match my Garnet Red paint.

07-08 USDM console upgrade (stereo with Aux in, new silver trim wrapping onto glovebox lid.)

Sounds like a Turbo S to me. :D Maybe while painting the new body parts, I could convince the painter to pull the subaru badge off the trunk, fill the holes for the badge, and the OE spoiler, and fit the K2Gear or STI rear lip spoiler, and replace the subaru oval with "Turbo S" from the Porsche, and relocate the oval to the lower right or left, next to the STI trunk badge, or opposite of it.

But the question is, with AWD... would it be better described as a Legacy Turbo 4S. (like the Carrera 4S, which is AWD, with turbo body, but no turbos. The Turbo S has no "4")

[DukeTrout]

Yeah, not so much on the fender vent. Yes, please! on the BBS wheels. Yummy.

Maybe the additional power is from mating the 2.5L block to the 2.0L's twin scroll turbo? I can hope, can't I?

[lookslikeanevo]

+1 on everything IWSS said

[BrownBoy]

What's interesting is that they widened the front fenders...but not the rears. I'm assuming because it's a lot more complicated to make a new piece for that section, while the front fenders are a simple adjustment to the mold/easy to one-off. BUt if they had done this car as a true widebody all around, THAT woulda been hot, even with the ugly fender vent!

[RedDevil]

The fender vent and the wheel color (could be the angle though) reminds me of the Buick Lucerne than a Legacy...:spin:

[tachikaze]

FURATTOTORUKU = "flat torque"

1 = Front Lip Spoiler (carbon)
2 = Front Grill
3 = Extended Front Fender
4 = Metallic paint Door Mirror
5 = Rear spoiler
6 = leather seats
7 = panel trim
8 = inner black trim
9 = Shift knob
10 = Sidesill plate
11 = Carpet mat
12 = Strengthened transmission
13 = Painted engine cover
14 = Sports muffler
15 & 16 = "BURENBOBUREKI" = Brembos
17 = Front 2-piece disk rotor
18 = Rear Disk rotor
19 = Bilstein
20 = Coil Springs
21 = Front flexible tower bar
22 = 18" BBS aluminum wheels
23 = Bridgestones
24 = keyed lugnut

. . . does seem like a nice bin of parts should I pick up that 08/09 Legacy GT this summer . . .

leaning more toward a LGT since I'm getting too old to futz with shifting all the time . . .

[LittleBlueGT]

http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/01_l.jpg
http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/02_l.jpg
http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/03_l.jpg
http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/04_l.jpg
http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/05_l.jpg
http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/06_l.jpg
http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/07_l.jpg
http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/08_l.jpg
http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/09_l.jpg
http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/10_l.jpg
http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/11_l.jpg
http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/12_l.jpg
http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/13_l.jpg

[LittleBlueGT]

And in case anybody missed the 6 pots and what looks like 2 piece rotors:

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg194/littlebluegt/LSTI6pot2piece.jpg

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg194/littlebluegt/LSTI6pot2piece.jpg%5B/IMG%5D

[IwannaSportSedan]

FRAKKIN HELL.

WHY CAN'T I BUY THIS CAR?????????

This just pisses me the hell off.

Forged BBS. (no doubt bilsteins and pinks behind them...)
Brembo ^6^ piston brakes.
Carbon interior trim, and black stack face.
STI start button, and STI badges from the factory.
6MT. (man, I wish they would put DCCD in it, too... that and a sunroof is the only thing missing here.)
2.5 Turbo motor (ok, we get that part, but does SOJ put the twin-scroll on this beast?)
Memory seats. (and I actually like the lighter leather on the otherwise black interior.)
Black headliner (look through the windows on the exterior shots... it's pretty dark.)
and the JDM correctly split tail lights, rear fogs, and HID/adjustable/washer equipped headlights...

and almost as important... NO MANDATORY NAV!!! (in Japan, it is probably optional, just as it should be.)

This thing probably has the STI 5x114 bolt pattern, gauging by the wheels and brakes. That means that the Evo MR's 7-pair BBS forged spoke wheels will probably be a direct swap, and the STI badges will very likely still fit the hub centers, I just happen to like that style of BBS more than the RE. I like the CH, but something about the RE's variation isn't quite my taste.

K2 front bumper cover (M5-style, which is an easy swap for a car with the JDM spec B setup anyway) is the only other major appearance modification I would make, and again, just based on my taste.

WR Blue, please, and FOR THE LOVE OF PETE, SELL IT IN NORTH AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Leonardo]

Yes, but would you pay close to 60 for it? It's the STi and it's at or above 40 and this is way nicer and more expensive.

I know I would!!!

[deimos]

I was just thinking to myself yesterday, "im so glad the lgt doesnt have one of those ghey fake side vents"


.....too late, its like the side blinker from the 90's, overdone and pointless :rolleyes:

[korpsepatrol]

JEEBUS that looks awesome, the vents i can do without but the rest... awesome. Just wish the car was in black or dgm.

[LittleBlueGT]

Silky White Pearl
EJ25STI 2.5L AVCS Twin-Scroll Turbo
276+ hp
253+ lb-ft




post #170 (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1340182&page=7)

[RedDevil]

I want that shift knob... :lol:

[IwannaSportSedan]

Silky White Pearl
EJ25STI 2.5L AVCS Twin-Scroll Turbo
276+ hp
253+ lb-ft

post #170 (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1340182&page=7)

Good lord, that is under-rated.

A twin scroll 2.5 liter making only 276hp and 253 lb.ft. That should be capable of 335hp and 300+ lb.ft. with nothing more than an ECU tune, and a good down-pipe.

Ok... let's break this down, what is different and the same as the Spec B we already get, and things that the WRX STI has.

USDM Spec B -- USDM WRX STI -- Legacy S concept.
2.5 turbo -- same -- same, plus twin scroll, but that is no extra parts, just different.
6MT, no DCCD -- 6MT DCCD -- 6MT no DCCD (but should)
subaru brakes -- Brembo 4-piston -- Brembo 6-piston
Bilsteins -- Bilsteins -- Bilsteins and pinks (but then so do all JDM STI vehicles)
Leather -- Leather optional -- Leather
cast wheels -- forged BBS optional -- forged BBS
NAV standard -- NAV optional -- NAV not present, but probably optional
~34999 -- ~34999 (+4k for options) -- Unknown for US market.

Other than some carbon trim pieces from the STI accessory catalog, they are fairly closely matched. Also, a US model would probably not get the twin-scroll, so standard 2.5 GT engine, maybe STI turbo and intake setup. It would probably gain a sunroof, also, since every other sedan has it besides the 2.5i base and SE. Less cost to put sunroof roof skins and headliners in everything... and we know how Subaru loves option choices.

Spec B is overpriced for it's equipment. The Legacy S loses the nav from that, so minus 2k. Adds brakes and wheels. +2k back in (net, considering part swap, not addition) Maybe SPT exhaust and intake standard, so +1K more.

I could easily see an STI-branded Legacy S in the US market for 36k, if the Spec B were to move down to $32k fully equipped, with Nav optional, and full color choice. (it would be moved down from it's top-of-line market position anyway) GT Limited similarly moving down below $28k well equipped, maybe even ~26k, if we were really lucky.

The Forester thread mentions something besides the Forester being shown at Detroit. Maybe it is a Legacy S for the US market... but somehow I am not holding my breath.

But if this car does arrive north of 40k, it will only continue subaru's streak of missing the mark.

The Legacy, as great of a car as I think it is, cannot compete with the 335i and G35x Touring or 6MT sport above 40k. It doesn't have enough interior amenities, and it is still a turbo 4, which has a certain market perception.

The Legacy S is what the Spec B should be, where the Spec B is priced. The Spec B is what $30-32k should be buying, and the 2.5 GT Limited is getting rebated anyway, so why not price it well below 30k, closer to $25-27k.


Sidebar:
The Mitsubishi Evo GSR just got official. 33k. (this is the one WITHOUT the big time transmission. Three 2000$ option packages, a 400$ disc changer, and a 400$ aluminum shifter, e-brake and leather boot package. The thing tops out north of $42K. FOR A HOPPED UP ECONOMY CAR!!! The STI is not as bad, but probably close enough.

The economy is not headed in that direction. consumer debt is getting out of hand, and the market is contracting. I can't think that the market is going to continue to support $30k and headed to $40k as the median price for average to somewhat nice cars.

There is certainly no way this Legacy S is $60k USD. It wouldn't sell ten units. It would have a hard time above $37k, no matter how sweet I think it is. Take a look at Mazdaspeed6 rebates to sell the remaining units. There may even be a 2007 Spec B left-over on the Ramsey Subaru lot in Des Moines, and it was marked down to ~$32k last time I saw it.

[DukeTrout]

I agree with a lot of what you say above, IWSS, but I get really tired of this

Spec B is overpriced for it's equipment.

generalization.

MSRP from the Subaru website:
Legacy spec.B = $33995
Legacy GT = $28295

So $5700 for:
Nav
Bilstiens
aluminum suspension bits
6 speed manual transmission (07+)
various and sundry aesthetic bits
18" wheels
RE050 tires
steering wheel radio controls (06&07)
Torsen rear lsd
R180 rear drivetrain
larger rear halfshafts

and I'm sure I missed some stuff. Everybody always does. Even Subaru's spec sheet misses some things.

If you think that list of fine parts, objectively, doesn't add up to $5700, you're nuts. If you don't think that all or some of the parts are worth it, that's your opinion and a good reason for you not to buy that vehicle.

But it's not a good reason to make snide comments about those who did.

And I can tell you that if you haven't driven the whole of the sum, you don't know what you're missing. The suspension really can't just be cobbled together from random aftermarket parts. It is well-matched. The 6-speed isn't just a 5-speed with an extra, tall gear at the end. It is among the smoothest of manual transmissions available, superior to current offerings from BMW and almost as good, if not as good as, the best from Honda.

I don't mean this to be a rant on you, IWSS, but as I already mentioned, I get tired of the whole anti-spec.B attitude. Nobody with a spec.B gets uppity about it compared to LGTs. OK, nobody but Vimy gets uppity about it compared to LGTs.

Can't we all just get along?

[IwannaSportSedan]

Do you get the spare parts back?

The cubby box
OE struts
steel suspension
5-speed
replaced aesthetic bits (exactly what is that? the Spec B can only be identified by the wheels and the shifter, if it's debadged...)
17" oe wheels
RE92s
steering wheel without audio buttons
viscous rear LSD from the GT
Are you sure that the rear half shafts are different? If so, count the original half shafts as spare parts.

If you get the spare parts back, to re-sell, then you can make a case. But since you don't, you have to deduct those parts before you add the upgrades, to measure the net change. Then the question is, does the NET PRICE DIFFERENCE equal or less than the $5700 MSRP premium.

Also, more importantly, what does the market say? Spec Bs don't sell all that well, and there are only about 500 made per year. As I said, I've seen a left over recently that hadn't been sold after well more than a year. Why can't subaru sell 500 of these things easily?

I am not trying to "HATE" the Spec B. But Why does SOA have to make it so hard to like?

I want a 6MT. I'd even like a bit of color in the black interior, red or blue. I am even considering putting the bilsteins on my car when the time comes to replace the struts. But I don't need NAV, and I don't like gray paint, and why should I pay more for something without a choice in the matter?

THAT is the part I don't appreciate, and don't want to take on more debt for. If you do, then fine. Have fun with your spec B, I don't begrudge you that, or blame you, if you like it.

Please also notice, I called for the Legacy GT Limited to get a similar price drop, too. It isn't well enough equipped to be a truly good deal at 30k fully loaded. 26-27k should get a well equipped GT Limited, as currently configured. For 30k, it should come with more than it does. It should come with what the Spec B has. Other $30-35k cars come with much more.

TSX is better equipped, amenities-wise, as is G35. Camry and Accord have more available options than Legacy GT, and the Legacy is the one that needs to prove itself in the marketplace, other cars sell more in a month or two than Legacy does all year.

People don't even know about the Legacy. The legacy needs to offer more for less money, and compete favorably. It already does, in the hardware department, but certainly not inside the cabin.

I recently looked at 2008 Legacys at the Subaru dealer in Bellevue NE, which has many more Legacys in stock than Des Moines. There was not a 2008 GT in stock less than 30,500, and that was the dark gray one with a stick. the rest were Autos, and all over 31,200. NOT A SINGE ONE was priced below 30k. The 2 3.0Rs were $32k, also, and they have the same equipment as the Spec B, aside from the drivetrain change.

I have never seen a Spec B with a sticker price less than 34k. I have seen them with rebates written below that, but never a number on the actual window sticker.

The Spec B is something truly compelling in other markets. Some well chosen suspension upgrades and sportier looks/wheels, available at a reasonable upgrade price, with all the configuration choices that the rest of the Legacys get, like a 'sport package' should be.

The Spec B in the US is not living up to that potential, and that is a let down to some of the people here who know what "could have been", and what we would really like to see, in order to BUY.

Let me put it this way:

If SOA built and spec'd the GT Spec B the way JDM does, and I suggest, you would still have bought it. You would have picked your color, and had pretty much the same car you have now, for less money.

The difference would be... I might have one, too. in my choice of colors, and within a realm of finance that I would have been willing to pay.

How is that a bad thing? For the economists... I contend that Legacy GT and Spec B are too high on the laffer curve. It the price would come down just a bit, to the optimum point, volume sales would pick up, and revenues per car might be lower, but more volume would actually increase revenues. Given of course, that Subaru re-invested, or pre-invested some of that in advertizing that actually let people know of the car's existence.

It is kind of like lowering taxes. More people make more money with lower tax rates, and pay individually less of a percent of a larger numerical figure (and keep a larger percentage of a larger number), but more volume of elligible tax payers and higher taxable income overall means more tax revenue overall. That has happened, verifiably, after the "Bush" tax cuts. Government has seen more revenue than they estimated since that was passed. They never seem to estimate on a dynamic scale, they only do the basic math, and don't take dynamic effects into account. They still continue to spend way more than the increased revenue, though, unfortunately. The spending is their problem.
But mostly I want to just use that as a financial illustration that lower prices don't necessarily mean less revenue and profit, if volume goes up as a result.

[Mines]

oh my long post

[Mines]

if subaru america came out with all those parts posted on the legacy s concpet for the US market, It would cost a lot, I would be in a whole different league.. like audi S4

The legacy tuned by sti already starts at just under 40k. There is no way the legacy s concept would be 37k

see, short and simple, wasn't too hard

[axis008]

hahahaha.

an iwss post is worthless if its not essay length.

[speeding_gaijin]

my contribution :D

not sure if anybody mentioned this, but Subaru of Japan is installing a 2.5 Turbo engine in this one. never been done in Japan yet.

Personally I love the side vents and the aluminium mirrors.

Looks like really good leather inside, but Subaru could be more modern and use more aluminium panels inside (but not plasitic painted as aluminium!!)


Don't like the rims at all. If I bought this car, I would have driven it straight to Autobacs to have tham chaned for something better looking. And I think its sits a bit too high.

LittleBlueGT: what camera did you use? these pics are stunning quality!

[LittleBlueGT]

Good lord, that is under-rated.

A twin scroll 2.5 liter making only 276hp and 253 lb.ft. That should be capable of 335hp and 300+ lb.ft. with nothing more than an ECU tune, and a good down-pipe.

A TS is not capable of making any more power then a single scroll, just has a lower boost threshold and quicker spool.

[LittleBlueGT]

I didn't take the pics, I found them on Nasioc, just posted them here.

[DukeTrout]

A TS is not capable of making any more power then a single scroll, just has a lower boost threshold and quicker spool.

But the TS associated with the JDM 2.0L turbo setup is bigger than the VF40. How else does it put down 276 ftlbs with 20% less displacement? Yes, I know the 2.0L revs through the roof, and that's why I'm not talking hp.

The TS for the JDM 2.0L turbo should be roughly equivalent to the VF39 in output if mated to the 2.5L block. Just an empirical estimate, based on what other turbos do for the two different engines, but it at least places brackets around what the potential of that turbo is.

VF40<TS~VF39<AVO420

[DukeTrout]

Do you get the spare parts back?

The cubby box
OE struts
steel suspension
5-speed
replaced aesthetic bits (exactly what is that? the Spec B can only be identified by the wheels and the shifter, if it's debadged...)
17" oe wheels
RE92s
steering wheel without audio buttons
viscous rear LSD from the GT
Are you sure that the rear half shafts are different? If so, count the original half shafts as spare parts.

(snip for brevity)

But mostly I want to just use that as a financial illustration that lower prices don't necessarily mean less revenue and profit, if volume goes up as a result.

Again, I agree with 99% of what you are saying. Yes, I'd like a color choice. Yes, if the Nav had been optional, I wouldn't have chosen it. I would now regret that choice, because I like the OEM Nav and the other capabililties the info screen gives. I would really have liked to have had bigger, better brakes on this car, but the OEM brakes are actually quite good as long as you aren't spending a day on the track.

But you're talking about preferences, not objective value. And the problem with your "spare parts" math is that the pieces you're talking about have little or no market value. In the process of upgrading a LGT to spec.B, exactly how much do you think you are going to make from your spare parts? Assuming they are brand new - you did the upgrade at the dealer before driving the car off the lot.

You could get some money for the trans, the rear LSD and the OEM wheels. RE92s?:lol: Steel suspension bits? Maybe if you happen to find someone who's wrecked their suspension on a curb somewhere. But it's not like you're going to get even wholesale for any of the above. So maybe you cleared $1000 on the whole kit. Now you buy the spec.B 18"s, used. You are now back to even, with a long way to go to get to your destination.

Assuming you have the tools and expertise to do the mechanical installation, electrical installation, not to mention upholstery skills. For 07s, to the best of our knowledge you'd have to get a new ECU to run the memory seats, since they don't have their own control module.

The task is far more than you make it out to be. And in the end, you can say that the difference in the cost of parts for SOA doesn't add up to $5700, but that's not the real value. If someone wants all the differences in the spec.B, that SOA doesn't offer on the LGT, they'd have to put the differences together themselves. And that is the real value difference between the two. How's that for economics? It is supply and demand.

And fyi, for 07s, in an area where Subarus are well-known like the PNW, they sold out within a few months of availability. The last one that I had heard of was at Wentworth in downtown Portland, which they held solid at $40k. Might as well have sealed it up in a block of acrylic and kept it in the showroom so that no one could actually touch the car.:lol:

Most, if not all, spec.B owners didn't pay MSRP, just like LGT owners. Contrast this to Acura, Infiniti, BMW, etc. who do not budge on MSRP unless they are really trying to get an albatross of a car from off their shoulders. So it's not like spec.B owners are really paying $34k, just like LGT owners aren't really paying $30k. Maybe this is a leftover from when GM influenced Subaru with all the markdowns and rebates, but in real-world money, people are paying 32 for spec.Bs, like people are paying 27 or 28 for GTs. Due to my specific circumstances when I bought mine, I actually paid less than $3k more for the spec.B than I would have for a GT, and I picked mine up an hour after it was loaded off the truck.

[Mines]

But the TS associated with the JDM 2.0L turbo setup is bigger than the VF40. How else does it put down 276 ftlbs with 20% less displacement? Yes, I know the 2.0L revs through the roof, and that's why I'm not talking hp.

The TS for the JDM 2.0L turbo should be roughly equivalent to the VF39 in output if mated to the 2.5L block. Just an empirical estimate, based on what other turbos do for the two different engines, but it at least places brackets around what the potential of that turbo is.

VF40<TS~VF39<AVO420

twinscroll doesn't necessarily mean bigger than vf40. The vf38 is about the same size as the vf40.

[DukeTrout]

Huh, then how do they get that kind of output from the 2.0? Again, I'm not talking hp, I'm talking torque.

[IwannaSportSedan]

But you're talking about preferences, not objective value. And the problem with your "spare parts" math is that the pieces you're talking about have little or no market value. In the process of upgrading a LGT to spec.B, exactly how much do you think you are going to make from your spare parts? Assuming they are brand new - you did the upgrade at the dealer before driving the car off the lot.


I don't think you are getting me.

Every part that the Spec B upgrades, is one non-spec-B part that the subaru plant DOESN'T HAVE TO BUY IN THE FIRST PLACE.

They don't have the expense of putting both GT parts, and Spec B parts in the spec B. You have to deduct the cost of the parts that DON'T get installed, and don't get ordered in the first place! Subaru does not pay for the Spec B to have the non-spec B parts in addition to the spec B specific ones. THAT is why you can't judge the upgrades by the retail markup.

Why do you think GM makes thousands of dollars more in profit on an Escalade vs a Tahoe. They are built the same way with slightly different parts, and cost nearly the same to build. The price is what they can get people to pay for on the retail end for the feature combination.

It isn't as though Subaru re-sells the spare parts I listed. They don't buy those quantities of parts to begin with! That cost isn't incurred, only the slight increase in costs for the better parts over the normal parts.

The seats are made by machines, just like all the other Legacy seats, with a bit different materials put in the sewing machines for the upholstery. The transmissions and differentials get installed on the same assembly line. The NAV gets installed just like it does on the GT automatics with the option, and the 3.0R, and any Outback that has it. And most of those cars don't cost as much as the Spec B.

The paint color is a data flag in the assembly control computer. no reason besides a STUPID CORPORATE DECISION to limit color choices.

NEVER, EVER judge the cost of a package upgrade by the cost of the parts that get added. For almost every part upgraded, there is a corresponding part that doesn't need to be ordered from the supplier, or built by the sub-assemblers.

Not only that, but the retail price of the parts from the Subaru parts counter are marked up for retail profit, and the manufacturing operation doesn't pay that markup, either. They buy at bulk cost, which is much less than you or I could get as retail price for those parts.

And, as a sidenote, if you have to have a new Body/chassis Control Unit for memory seats, then SOA is completely stupid. Why have a separate part for that feature? why incur that kind of inventory and development costs? FOR MEMORY SEATS, for pete's sake. Chances are, if you put memory seats on an 07+ GT, I'll bet they would work. The BCU is expensive enough to make one version of, I doubt there are two versions for the same model year. Maybe 06 didn't have it, and it was revised as part of the new model year update, but I'll bet there isn't more than one BCU for 07.

And as another thought...
If rebates are so common, why not discount the price, and advertise the price as being lower than the competition, and then sell at that price? They aren't making the retail price anyway, so they aren't exactly losing revenue. And the increased sales at lower prices might actually bring in some more revenue.

That 2007 Spec B is in fact still covered in snow on the Ramsey Subaru dealer lot in Des moines. Still not sold, and has been marked down below $32k. No wonder they don't like to stock Legacy turbos there. The market has something to say about price, and it is saying that it is too high for the car to sell. For more than a year.

If Subaru were to build the Legacy S for the US market, all of the further upgrades would displace lower-trim parts, again. If Subaru can't sell a Legacy S in the US for less than 40k, and actually closer to $36k with the equipment that the JDM Legacy S has, then they indeed shouldn't bother. because they can't compete at 28k with the GT limited, and they certainly can't compete at 34k for the Spec B, with other cars at those price ranges, when the Legacy stagnates year over year, and other cars are getting better.

G35 has been updated. Genesis is coming out. TL-S came out. TSX with turbo and SH-AWD is coming soon. IS350 and CTS are out, and G8 is coming. Accord and Camry have more stock horsepower. Cars like Azera have more power and more room, even if they aren't quite as fast.
Legacy hasn't made a splash, and hasn't been upgraded to keep up. It could have gotten more for the 08 refresh than it did. Instead, it got beige paint.

Either this needs to get serious, or they need to pack it up. I love the Legacy, and it is one of my favorite cars. The longer they let it stagnate, the harder it is going to fall. More than the wagon body-style is going to get cut. People are already talking about the Legacy getting bigger for '10. Will it even have a turbo option then, or will it go the way of the Camry, and Taurus/500 and become a bland-mobile that just happens to have a good 6-cylinder boxer, and good AWD.

I love the Legacy as a product, but if Subaru thinks that there are more consumers like you who will accept less choice for more money, and thinks it can continue the way it has been going, it is going to continue to miss it's market targets, and sales are going to continue to fall, and products will only suffer more for it.

[pengwin]

That looks awesome. i love the vents and i think im the only one).


i dunno if it's been mentioned but they should make a Legacy STi and turbo the 3.0 flat-6 instead of the impreza engine. Make for an amazing car.

[DukeTrout]

I don't think you are getting me.

Oh, I am. I understand where you're coming from. I'm trying to present an alternative perspective.


Every part that the Spec B upgrades, is one non-spec-B part they DON'T HAVE TO BUY IN THE FIRST PLACE.

They don't have the expense of putting both GT parts, and Spec B parts in the spec B.

You have to deduct the cost of the parts that DON'T get installed, and don't get ordered in the first place!

NEVER, EVER judge the cost of a package upgrade by the cost of the parts that get added. For almost every part upgraded, there is a corresponding part that doesn't need to be ordered from the supplier, or built by the sub-assemblers.

Not only that, but the retail price of the parts are marked up for retail profit, and the manufacturing operation doesn't pay that markup, either. They buy at bulk cost.

Subaru does not pay for the Spec B to have the non-spec B parts in addition to the spec B specific ones. THAT is why you can't judge the upgrades by the retail markup.

You and I are are talking about slightly different things. You seem to be talking about pricing. I'm talking about value. In a perfect world, they are the same. In the real world, they have little to do with each other.

Let's forget for a moment that you've failed to take into consideration the disproportionate costs of design, certification, manufacturing changes, inventory of both parts and final product, promotion, manuals, training, commission, etc., etc., etc., that accumulate for any product that is different.

You're assuming that pricing is directly related to the difference in cost for the manufacturer between one model and another. It couldn't be further from the truth. The only check that is made, during the planning process and again near the completion on a new project, is: are we covering the difference in cost with the price? The actual, final price is determined by factors mostly related to product positioning, both internally and relative to competitor's products.


And, as a sidenote, if you have to have a new Body/chassis Control Unit for memory seats, then SOA is completely stupid. Why have a separate part for that feature?

Chances are, if you put memory seats, or even just the BUTTONS on an 07+ GT, I'll bet they would work. The BCU is expensive enough to make one version of. Why make two versions just for seat memory?


That's wonderful. Many members have been trying to do this. Some have already installed 07 spec.B seats in their OB or LGT. Guess what? They look great, but no memory seats. There is no memory seat control module with the seat. There's a wire that runs up through the center tunnel and through the firewall. I don't think anybody's traced it further, but it either goes to the BCU or ECU or some genius decided to mount the memory control module in the engine bay.

I don't call it engineering genius, but that's the way it is. I wish it was otherwise, because I want to mount an 07 spec.B seat in our OBXT specifically for the memory seat function, but all the reseach I've done says it isn't going to happen.


If Subaru were to build the Legacy S for the US market, all of the further upgrades would displace lower-trim parts, again.


And the pricing would be done by SOA, mostly relative to the STi, spec.B, and whatever cars they feel are competitors to the Legacy S. NOT simply by calculating the difference in cost relative to the spec.B. That difference would simply serve as a baseline.


And as another thought...
If rebates are so common, why not discount the price, and advertise the price as being lower than the competition, and then sell at that price? They aren't making the retail price anyway, so they aren't exactly losing revenue. And the increased sales at lower prices might actually bring in some more revenue.

I wish they wouldn't rebate and discount so much. I only know subaru from the days when GM was the major influence, and I wonder how much of their pricing structure is from remaining bad habits from the days when GM owned 20%.

Then again, there is a school of thought in business to have higher MSRPs and run discounts to some customers on some products. That way, the majority of fools will buy your products for the inflated MSRP, while your sales force still has the flexibility to discount for more savvy customers. Of course, the down side is that if you advertise inflated prices, how many customers simply never darken your doors...?

[tachikaze]

Not only that, but the retail price of the parts from the Subaru parts counter are marked up for retail profit, and the manufacturing operation doesn't pay that markup, either. They buy at bulk cost, which is much less than you or I could get as retail price for those parts.

yeah, well, that's not how the world works. Prices in the real world are set by substitution cost on the consumer's end, not COGS (cost of goods sold) or any economics on the producer's end.

Eg. the new Honda hydrogen-powered sedan that they're going to start leasing @ $600/mo for down in LA. They can set this pricepoint because the damn thing has a daily running cost of about half the equivalent gasoline burner, so the $600/mo lease means more money to Honda and less to Chevron and our OPEC friends overseas.

Half of running a successful niche-scale retail operation is devising pricepoints and forcing mechanisms that customers will/can/should happily buy into.

The Japanese automakers have a different business model in their home country, however. There, every dealer is like the best boutique dealerships here and the prices, options, and customer care are equally elevated.

From what I see, the reason they don't have more paint codes for the Spec.B is to make the inventory more fungible between dealers (every paint code they offer means dealers have to buy more Spec.Bs to cover the range).

Clearly the future should be a BTO (build-to-order) system where we all can get the exact car we want with minimal BS, but that's thinking logically and the new car business is anything but logical. It runs on image, asymmetrical information, emotions, lust, greed, envy, lies, and salesmanship.

[DukeTrout]

Right on, tachikaze.

What interested me about the EDM BMW 130i was that they could produce a fully customer-spec.ed car in the Regensburg plant and deliver it in three days. A customer could order it online or with a dealer's guidance and get the exact color, engine, transmission, stereo, wheels, interior, etc. that they wanted in three days. As orders came in, the system automatically placed orders for new parts, and even forcast and trended the usage to help keep the upstream supply chain as efficient as possible. Now THAT is how to do the car business. They've applied the same system for Mini, which is how they can get away with so many customer-configurable options in a relatively small number of relatively inexpensive cars.

[IwannaSportSedan]

If everything about the corporate business of building and selling cars makes it hard for an average gearhead like me from buying a new car...

Then I guess I won't buy a new car. And they won't make the sale. Again.

And their sales will fall as other people also don't buy subarus either.

If building 500 cars per year slightly differently than the rest can't be covered by LESS than 5700$ per unit (assuming they sell all of them, which they haven't) can't handle the expense, then they need to get out of the business, and let someone else try.

You realize that is $2,850,000 is a fairly big chunk of money, right? For 500 cars... each year.

I think this should MORE than enough to cover:the disproportionate costs of design, certification, manufacturing changes, inventory of both parts and final product, promotion, manuals, training, commission, etc., etc., etc., that accumulate for any product that is *BARELY* different. Sorry, had to add a bit there...

They didn't redesign the car. They added a handful of different parts. I doubt it required much of any certification, or more than a minimum of design work, and I'll bet the manufacturing barely notices the difference between spec B and GT Limited going through the factory.

Clearly the future should be a BTO (build-to-order) system where we all can get the exact car we want with minimal BS, but that's thinking logically and the new car business is anything but logical. It runs on image, asymmetrical information, emotions, lust, greed, envy, lies, and salesmanship.

I completely agree with this statement. But I don't like it.

If all of that makes it harder for customers to buy the cars they want to buy, I have absolutely ZERO sympathy for a company like Subaru of America, who's sales are going down, while they are already at the bottom of the marketshare list.

I love my legacy as a product, but if that business can't see past it's own bureaucracy, then they need to wake up or go down. I hope they wake up.

Just another company that doesn't sell PRODUCTS for appropriate money, they try to make MONEY by undergoing that 'hassle' of selling those pesky products.

No sympathy at all. Just sadness to see good engineering betrayed by bureaucratic crap.

[psi365]

I hate the side vents and the wheels, but like everything else about this car. It does look like it sits a little high to me though.

.

From what I see, the reason they don't have more paint codes for the Spec.B is to make the inventory more fungible between dealers (every paint code they offer means dealers have to buy more Spec.Bs to cover the range).

Clearly the future should be a BTO (build-to-order) system where we all can get the exact car we want with minimal BS, but that's thinking logically and the new car business is anything but logical. It runs on image, asymmetrical information, emotions, lust, greed, envy, lies, and salesmanship.

To my knowledge spec Bs are already pretty much bto cars. Dealers don't want to sit on them, and they don't build a ton of them so SOA makes the dealership order them with customers names (at least that was what I was told). A huge problem with BTO cars is cost. By making spec Bs a lot more standard then the normal Legacy technically they can cut down on cost because they all get the same interior, same base options and only two exterior colors (at least on 08s) they can knock them out fairly quick. If you add certain options, all colors, interior color options it brings the cost up due to it being more involoved to build the final product.

to IWSS:
You keep bring up an usold 07 spec B in Iowa the state of farms. How well do Subarus in general sell there? The dealership I bought my car from sat on an 06 for a long itme, sold it. They got 2 07 sBs in and one sold within a month the other became a demo that sold. My car was there first 08 sB in which they special ordered it and almost sold it under me. Another member here bought a similiar sB from them and they had gotten at least another 2 that I know of that they sold. sBs were never meant to be a mass produced version of the Legacy. They were just meant to be a band aid to the LGT crowd that wanted a little more performance (and by that I mean handling). If you think sBs are such a ripe off check out an A3 or A4. Even with employee pricing, I got a ton better value by buying my sB then A3 of even a stripped down A4.

In all honesty I can't see SOA bringing a LSTi here. If they did people would still whine about something it is missing or that it costs to much as compared to something else. Then comes down to getting it to pass emissions and crash safety and all the other things. It doesn't make sense.

You are also talking about lower the price of the car. Do you think that there are huge profit margins for the dealers? Even if you do reduce the price people will still want it cheaper so where does it end? It comes down to if Subaru really wants to sell more Legacys then they are going to actually have to start advertising them plain and simple.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Subaru outbacks and foresters sell like CRAZY here. Legacys Tribecas and new imprezas, not so much.

Most SUV buyers buy truck based SUVs around here, and actually use them to do work.

Legacys don't seem to sell all that well anywhere, by the numbers. I wholeheartedly agree with you, they need to be advertized.

New imprezas are getting uglier, and are no longer as affordable as they once were, so people are buying cheaper cars, or used cars more often than new imprezas.

And if the Spec B was in demand, Ramsey Subaru would have traded that car off to another dealer who wanted to sell one.

I don't think they ordered that one with a name in mind. This is why they normally don't stock turbos there, and why I couldn't find a single one when I was looking to buy mine.

I am not suggesting that dealers take less markup, I am suggesting that SOA figures out a way to sell them for less. Because they aren't selling.

And if offering fewer options is so beneficial to doing business, we'd all be driving new Model Ts, any color as long as it's black.

The sure fire way for Subaru to avoid legitimate complaints (not whining... if I can't buy what I want, I don't buy it. What is whining about that?) is to do their damn research, pull their heads out, and sell a car that people want to buy, at an appropriate price that people can afford, and then tell the people about it.

In other words... DO THEIR JOBS BETTER.

Not stocking cars, and not offering cars with choices that EVERY OTHER DAMN MANUFACTURER IN THE MARKET OFFERS is Bullcrap. Offering a special edition with less configurability than the main trim line is also bullcrap.

AMGs don't come in only one color. Nor do M BMWs. Not even chrysler SRT cars. Some of them may have fewer color choices. but they still have more than gray or grayer, and those colors are suited to performance vehicles.

All this BS about internal corporate culture and costs for this, and extra effort that... is all excuses, and enabling Subaru of America to continue not competing, and continuing to decline in sales.

Subaru either wants to sell cars, or they don't. This is what they do, this is their JOB, to offer cars that are compelling for people to buy. Their-way-or-the-highway option choices are not compelling.

Putting the USDM WRX STI Turbo and Intake on the Legacy, with the Spec B's 6MT and Bilsteins, along with brembo brakes, and selling it in limited numbers for the same price as the WRX STI is not that damn much to ask, it wouldn't require re-certification of things that are already certified, and the engine is no different, so it would not require re-crash testing. Painting it WR Blue, or red is not that damn hard, either.

It is amazing to me that so many people want to give subaru a pass for offering less choice, for more money. When is that a good idea for a company that is failing to compete?

I checked an A4, I didn't buy one because it was too much money for too little of a car, both in terms of power, options, and physical size. The A3 is no different other than being even more FWD biased with it's transverse layout. I am not saying that Audi is doing it any better, but they aren't in Subaru's market position in this country. They haven't cancelled their Avants, and they haven't stopped painting A4s red, or any other color besides gray or brown.

And if the Spec B is simply a GT bandaid for more handling performance, it failed miserably. Struts (even the Bilsteins themselves), springs (or coilovers), anti roll bars, and a set of new tires can transform the handling of a GT limited into something BETTER than the spec B, for less than the cost of the spec B's price increase.

I want to see subaru suceed, I want to see the Legacy acheive it's technical potential. But people coddling SOA, and re-inforcing their current product strategy is the sure fire way for that not to happen. SOA needs to do more, and that pressure can only come from consumers.

[psi365]

Putting the USDM WRX STI Turbo and Intake on the Legacy, with the Spec B's 6MT and Bilsteins, along with brembo brakes, and selling it in limited numbers for the same price as the WRX STI is not that damn much to ask, it wouldn't require re-certification of things that are already certified, and the engine is no different, so it would not require re-crash testing. Painting it WR Blue, or red is not that damn hard, either.

It is amazing to me that so many people want to give subaru a pass for offering less choice, for more money. When is that a good idea for a company that is failing to compete?

I checked an A4, I didn't buy one because it was too much money for too little of a car, both in terms of power, options, and physical size. The A3 is no different other than being even more FWD biased with it's transverse layout. I am not saying that Audi is doing it any better, but they aren't in Subaru's market position in this country. They haven't cancelled their Avants, and they haven't stopped painting A4s red, or any other color besides gray or brown.


You'd be surprised reasons you would have to get a car certified for. THe B5 A4/S4 you could change coding in a control module to do things like hit the remote and it would unlock all doors, or hit and hold the remote and it would roll down all the windows and open the sunroof. The codings were all over the internet as to how to do it. At dealershiips we could get into serious trouble for doing it Audi went cheap and refused to crash test with each of the individual codings. It's supposedly a safety thing so we aren't allowed to do it even if the customer wants us to. Now the kicker is that VW Audi's parent company did crash test their cars with it and they have the ability to actually do all the codings. The changes you were saying that they should perfrom to the LGT with the intake, turbo, suspension, and turbo all would require both emissions certifacation and crash testing. Not onlly that but depending on mileage it would againist mileage/emission credits. It's not nearly as easy as you think it is to take off parts of car A for car B and it should pass because car A already did with some of the parts.

Trust me I give no company a pass for anything. I didn't mind QSM and I wanted nav and for the money and the entire spec B package you get a lot of car for the buck as compared to Audi, BMW, or MB. At this point who knows what Subaru's target is anymore. I share your frustration, just towards another car company. Instead of trying to improve their products and keep their customers happy they try to shoot for the moon and have excessively over priced products. I'll agree that certain colors only get certain color interiors is completely stupid. To my knowledge other markets make spec Bs in all colors. I think part of the difference is that Subaru has a larger presence in those countries. To them the US isn't their largest market so it comes down to the take it or leave it additude.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I apologize If I insinuated that people here had less than honorable motives. I just get worked up a bit when status quo seems to continue encouraging things to languish, when they could be better.

And I really want the Legacy S to come to North America, and with SOA's mentality as it is, I fear it won't work. Either it will be well equipped and way too expensive, or not as well equipped as the JDM car is, and as it's price should entail.

Not only that, but I had a feeling that what you describe is true. the government makes regulations which cause all sorts of bureaucratic trouble, and Subaru, and other companies actually have to pay for the testing and certifications. I have been hoping that there was some sanity to it, but evidently there is not. I should have realized that after they passed the new CAFE energy policies...

The question is, if Subaru won't take the bull by the horns, and do what they need to do, and things like government regulation make that even harder, then why bother getting enthused, hopeful, or even upset?

BTW, I was under the impression that the US IS in fact Subaru's largest unit sales country. Other markets have better percentages of marketshare in those markets, but I think the US is their numerically biggest market.

It this atmosphere of over-regulation, over-taxation, over-priced fuel, over-leveraged consumer debt, and even southern baptist populist presidential candidates, and things like housing, cars, and the value of the dollar taking the brunt of it...

Welcome back to the 1970s, in more ways than one. I just hope we don't roll the clock back further, to the 1930s.

[NSFW]

Good lord, that is under-rated.

Why do you believe that?

[ehsnils]

It this atmosphere of over-regulation, over-taxation, over-priced fuel, over-leveraged consumer debt, and even southern baptist populist presidential candidates, and things like housing, cars, and the value of the dollar taking the brunt of it...


I can agree with you - especially since the fuel price here today is about 7.50US$/gallon :eek: And add a tax level of about 60%...:p

[croll326]

fender vents = buick

[IwannaSportSedan]

Why do you believe that?

A twin-scroll turbo from the JDM side with the 2.5 liter block... The 2.5 STI breaks 300hp... with twin scroll, it could actually go even higher than that, without making spool-up slower.

Turn up the bass, er I mean Boost, man!

JDM twin scroll turbos are one of the reasons that the 2.0 liter engine makes as much or more power than the USDM 2.5 liter.

Pair them up, and more than 310hp should be factory tuneable. maybe even up to 330. Aftermarket can probably get much more than that, with proper fuel pressure.

But yet they say that it is rated at the 275hp neighborhood. Good, but probably a bit short of what it is truly capable of.

[camber]

And if the Spec B is simply a GT bandaid for more handling performance, it failed miserably. Struts (even the Bilsteins themselves), springs (or coilovers), anti roll bars, and a set of new tires can transform the handling of a GT limited into something BETTER than the spec B, for less than the cost of the spec B's price increase.

:rolleyes:

In the aftermarket, your not gong to find a better brand new street suspension setup that can be driven on all types of roads and conditions for less money. You *might* be able to tune an aftermarket suspension to a *bit* better in one area but there will be trade offs.

spec. B handling upgrade over LGT:

Bigger wheels( To lower the tire profile. Increase steering feel)
Tophats(increase steering feel)
Aluminum suspension bits(Decrease Unsprung mass. Quickens suspension response)
Summer tires
rear Helical LSD
Upgraded struts


I have have difficulty with you using the the term "BETTER"(subjective). Sure you could probably thow on a set of Hoosiers on a stock LGT and have more grip then a spec. B when you were driving at operating temperatures. However, that wouldn't be practical for a daily driver. Would you call that "BETTER"?


You might have better handling in one area while maybe reamining slightly cheaper then a spec. B. However, there will be tradeoffs. You'll be losing OEM suspension refinement and overall driveability fon the streets.

Have even driven a spec. B for any real length of time?

[grocery getter]

Don't know about the other Spec B owners...but I think the additional cost of the "spec B" is worth it. I was looking at a comparable BMW 335xi for 45k, saved the money and will be modding up the spec B to STI levels in the near future. Oh and I bought my 08 spec B for 30k out the door!!

[DukeTrout]

IWSS - The funny thing is, I agree that SOA's product planning has their head up their a$$.

There are two key things that I disagree with you about. 1. that the spec.B is overpriced relative to the LGT (and the insinuation that spec.B owners were somehow dumb or gullible to buy the car over a base GT); and 2. that the LGT (or spec.B or Legacy S if we ever see it) is overpriced in the market.

I'm not going over the spec.B thing again. Yes, gray only is annoying. I just happened to luck out that I like DGM very much. The only color in Subaru's past and present Legacy pallette that I like better is RBP.

You say the Legacy line needs to shift several thousand lower in price. Yet when you make comparisons to competitive vehicles, you clearly place it smack in-between the midsize econosedans (Camry, Accord, Altima, etc.) and the small luxury sedans (3-series, A4, G35, TSX, IS350, etc.). And you're right. And if you neglect Accords/Camrys stuffed to the gills with options and discounted TSXs, that's right where it's priced. From that perspective, both the LGT and LGT spec.B are priced right where they belong. They offer more value in the segment than the typical Accord/Camry and better performance value than the small lux sedans without quite as many amenities. If they were to bring the S concept as a production car, it would appropriately be just above the bottom-end small lux cars (G35, TL, IS, A4) but still undercutting the real performers in the group (only the 335i really qualifies). Assuming some discount for real purchases, $40k MSRP would be just right. People would be able to walk out the door for $37-38k.

And I've driven the new G35. Looks fantastic in pictures and on paper. In person, it's dissappointing. In the driver's seat, it is even more so.

Again, get rid of the perception that pricing has anything to do with cost. The deviation isn't actually that bad in the auto industry. In other industries, there truly is no relationship whatsoever. Pricing is set where the company thinks the consumer will pay. If they guess wrong, it quickly becomes apparent and the price adjusts. If they overestimate, retailers and distributors have to give discounts and rebates until the price is accepted by consumers. If they underestimate, you get the situation like what happened with the Wii, where retailers/distributors sell out and the product goes to secondary markets with a sharp markup.

You can't use individual cars at an individual dealership as a market index for a product. If your local dealership still has an 07 spec.B, it's probably because they've priced it out of the ballpark with the intention of keeping it in the showroom to entice people into other cars. That's what Wentworth did here in PDX. All the other dealerships sold their spec.Bs almost as soon as they got them, many were pre-sold, and they were scrambling to make dealer trades to get more. The dealership that I went to sold three in the first month they were available to them: mine, a dealer trade for a customer who was in the dealership the day I picked mine up and tried to buy it out from under me, and another dealer trade that I helped to hook up from here on legacygt.com. From the sounds of it, any one of the 9 dealerships in the Portland area sells more Legacies than in the whole state of Iowa. This might be a better model market to gauge the value of the product.

In the end, we both agree that SOA should bring a "halo car" Legacy to the US, and that by neglecting the Legacy line and limiting consumer choices within that line, they are shooting themselves in the foot.

The rest is details :)

[chenc544]

They offer more value in the segment than the typical Accord/Camry and better performance value than the small lux sedans without quite as many amenities.

I think this comes down to 2 things. How much value you place in AWD and turbo-4 vs V6. If you live south of snow belt, AWD will have a lot less value to you. In fact it might even be view as a negative because of the fuel economy handicap. Tubo-4 vs V6 really comes down to if you plan on modding or if you live at higher altitude. I live in Denver and I wanted to mod so LGT was a great bang for the buck for me, especially at $24.6k. On the other hand, I told my girlfriend's mom, who lives in FL, don't even bother looking at a Subaru.

[NSFW]

Subaru makes at least 3 sizes of twin scroll turbo.
Which do you think the Legacy S has?

[sickdrift]

:rolleyes:
spec. B handling upgrade over LGT:

Bigger wheels( To lower the tire profile. Increase steering feel)



I dont know about pre '08, but my factory tires are exactly 1" taller than a factory GT tire, which i find completely annoying despite a purported near idential final drive ratio:rolleyes:.

[IwannaSportSedan]

IWSS - The funny thing is, I agree that SOA's product planning has their head up their a$$.

There are two key things that I disagree with you about. 1. that the spec.B is overpriced relative to the LGT (and the insinuation that spec.B owners were somehow dumb or gullible to buy the car over a base GT); and 2. that the LGT (or spec.B or Legacy S if we ever see it) is overpriced in the market.

I wasn't meaning that Spec B owners are anything like that. More power to you if it fits.

I was meaning that Subaru is extremely stupid for making the Spec B hard to like unless you are in that special standard deviation that likes that particular combination.

I wanted to like the Spec B. It should be right in my crosshairs, but due to stupid decisions, it is not. It fits you, but it should be fitted to a few more people.


I'm not going over the spec.B thing again. Yes, gray only is annoying. I just happened to luck out that I like DGM very much. The only color in Subaru's past and present Legacy pallette that I like better is RBP.

If the Regal Blue Pearl and Garnet Red Pearl were still offered, that would be a start. WR Blue pearl, and Solid Red would be even better. What about black? What about Pearl white, the Legacy S is a special color of white, no less, and I'll bet WRB will be available, too, in Japan.


You can't use individual cars at an individual dealership as a market index for a product. If your local dealership still has an 07 spec.B, it's probably because they've priced it out of the ballpark with the intention of keeping it in the showroom to entice people into other cars.

After I bought my Legacy GT, they tried to sell me on that particular Spec B when they first received it. (mere weeks after they didn't have it or any other GTs on the lot for me to buy) they were asking full price.

Then in the summer, it was marked down to $33k. (with spoiler and mats, etc.. it stickered at almost $35k.) It has been marked down *below* $32K for at least the last three months. I don't think they are all that keen to keep this car on the lot. It hasn't been in the showroom for at least 6 months, and has been covered in snow all winter. (each time I have seen it anyway, I like to check out new stock, and they have mazdas, pontiacs, and real porsche eye-candy, too.)

In the end, we both agree that SOA should bring a "halo car" Legacy to the US, and that by neglecting the Legacy line and limiting consumer choices within that line, they are shooting themselves in the foot.

The rest is details :)

The devil is in the details. Always is. But you are right, we are mostly on the same page.

From Camber:
In the aftermarket, your not gong to find a better brand new street suspension setup that can be driven on all types of roads and conditions for less money. You *might* be able to tune an aftermarket suspension to a *bit* better in one area but there will be trade offs.


C'mon... we've been through this all before. The Spec B is NOT a different car than the Legacy GT. And I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the differences aren't THAT big.

The GT Limited isn't exactly a stock truck compared to the almighty spec B.

spec. B handling upgrade over LGT:
Bigger wheels( To lower the tire profile. Increase steering feel) I have 18x8 Rota Torques in Hypersilver. One of five sets custom finished that way. Wider AND lower profile. Next.

Tophats(increase steering feel) Honestly... you think strut top hats make a world of difference??? a good alignment makes more difference.

Aluminum suspension bits(Decrease Unsprung mass. Quickens suspension response) Last I heard the aluminum parts weren't all that much lighter. They can be had and fitted, though.

Summer tires - Have 'em. Again, on full inch wider wheels.

rear Helical LSD - I have a viscous LSD in the Legacy, and a Torsen in the Miata. Honestly... not a world of difference. If I had a choice buying a new car, I would choose the torsen, but in the real world, LSD is LSD 98% of the time.

Upgraded struts - When I say one can do it cheaper, I am including the Bilstein struts from the Spec B, and their top hats. AND better than stock aftermarket springs. Lowering the car an inch (Spec B rides higher than GT not lower) lowers CG and roll-center. That has real effects on geometry and handling.


I have have difficulty with you using the the term "BETTER"(subjective). Sure you could probably thow on a set of Hoosiers on a stock LGT and have more grip then a spec. B when you were driving at operating temperatures. However, that wouldn't be practical for a daily driver. Would you call that "BETTER"?

I am not talking about hoosiers and burnouts.

I am talking about aftermarket wheels and tires, both wider wheels than 18x7, and better AND more affordable summer tires than RE050s. like Toyo T1-Rs. Tires are another discussion.
Bilsteins, top hats (because they won't fit otherwise), and ion progressive rate springs. Whiteline, Cusco, or otherwise modestly upgraded anti-roll bars and links.

One could probably install that for a lot less than $5700. And have slightly more color choice with the GT Limited, and no mandatory nav. The 6-speed may be nice, but the 5-speed is no slouch, Believe me.

Add an AP with stage 2 with exhaust, not only will it handle better. it will be faster doing it. And still probably under budget. Again, it all depends on the details, and who those details fit. Nav and gray paint don't fit me, especially not for more debt outlay to get it.


You might have better handling in one area while maybe remaining slightly cheaper then a spec. B. However, there will be tradeoffs. You'll be losing OEM suspension refinement and overall driveability fon the streets.

Have even driven a spec. B for any real length of time?

I guess every tuner ever to turn a wrench on a sport sedan has just ruined the "OEM refinement" and the "overall driveability". Bunk. Well chosen and well tuned aftermarket can be just as good or better than OEM upgrades. Otherwise the aftermarket industry would be a shadow of it's actual size. If OEM refinement and overall driveability were so important, why would companies like RUF and Alpina, and many others exist? OEM refinement of Porsche and BMW is much better than Subaru, which I doubt anyone here argues.

Do you want to let me drive your spec B for a few thousand miles??? Didn't think so, and neither does any one else. You aren't driving my car either.

I have test driven one, though. The difference was there, no doubt, but it was not the night-and-day difference you guys seem to claim that it is. the difference was much more pronounced between my car and the Outback 3.0R wagon loaner that I got for a day, than between my car and a spec B.

I understand the defensiveness, but please. We are all Legacy fans here, and you don't have to justify your purchase to me or anyone else. If you like it, fine. That doesn't make it somehow a supercar to defend your purchasing decision.

This rampant one-upmanship of the Spec B over the GT Limited isn't becoming. We are on the same team, as it were. I wasn't attacking Spec B buyers personally, although I do apologize if my fervor presented itself that way. But I was taking a bit of issue with the insinuation that the Spec B is just a handling band-aid for the GT. The GT isn't that bad, and doesn't require much to be pretty darn impressive. And the price increase on the Spec B isn't all suspension. Part of it is NAV, and some of it is what PSI describes as non-cost ingredients, like market placement and exclusivity, whether or not I agree with that motive, or the other restrictions that come along with it.

As I said, I should be the biggest proponent of the Spec B on this forum. That sort of sport upgrade should be aimed squarely at enthusiasts like me. But due to the "details" it isn't. I like the Spec B's suspension. But you can do as much or better with the GT for less money, especially without the NAV system for the GT. and I wouldn't trade GRP for gray paint if you covered the cost increase. I'd rather tune the red car. I just wish Subaru didn't make that choice for me.

[monkonmonk]

Here are some links to the pictures posted and some more of a legacy I found on the same website.

http://www.carview.co.jp/tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/default.asp (http://www.carview.co.jp/tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/default.asp)
http://www.carview.co.jp/tas/2008/take_car/sclabo_tokyo_blomulus/default.asp (http://www.carview.co.jp/tas/2008/take_car/sclabo_tokyo_blomulus/default.asp)

Monk

[camber]

I dont know about pre '08, but my factory tires are exactly 1" taller than a factory GT tire, which i find completely annoying despite a purported near idential final drive ratio:rolleyes:.

You realize I'm taking about the aspect ratio between the sidewall and the part of the tire that contacts the road?

[HangKen]

Ahhh, I hope this comes out!!
So Pretty it hurts my eyes....

[camber]

C'mon... we've been through this all before. The Spec B is NOT a different car than the Legacy GT. And I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the differences aren't THAT big.

The GT Limited isn't exactly a stock truck compared to the almighty spec B.

spec. B handling upgrade over LGT:
Bigger wheels( To lower the tire profile. Increase steering feel) I have 18x8 Rota Torques in Hypersilver. One of five sets custom finished that way. Wider AND lower profile. Next.


At least what $800 new?

Not a big Rota fan myself...


Tophats(increase steering feel) Honestly... you think strut top hats make a world of difference??? a good alignment makes more difference.


There is a reason why there are three different tophats for the Legacy. I guess you know more then Subaru?

$160



Aluminum suspension bits(Decrease Unsprung mass. Quickens suspension response) Last I heard the aluminum parts weren't all that much lighter. They can be had and fitted, though.


Well a a few pounds in lossed in unsprung mass actually does make a lot bigger difference then losing a few pounds of sprung mass. You know that right?

I guess subaru goes through the trouble of making much more expensive parts for marginal gains just for fun.

$1000 from japan parts but I think I've seen the pieces for as low as $600

Summer tires - Have 'em. Again, on full inch wider wheels.

Cheap 245/35/18 summer tires
$700 est

You'll notice more harshness with a 35 profile tire and much less resistance to damaging a wheel. It should give your more grip depending on the tire.


rear Helical LSD - I have a viscous LSD in the Legacy, and a Torsen in the Miata. Honestly... not a world of difference. If I had a choice buying a new car, I would choose the torsen, but in the real world, LSD is LSD 98% of the time.

I was just going to stop writing a response when I read this.....

If you can't tell the difference between a VLSD equipped car and mechanical one(and its advantages. Espeically in a heavy sedan) you lose all priviledges on commenting on tuning....


Don't know what the R180 Subaru HLSD would retail for but basic quaife is about $1500.


Upgraded struts - When I say one can do it cheaper, I am including the Bilstein struts from the Spec B, and their top hats. AND better than stock aftermarket springs. Lowering the car an inch (Spec B rides higher than GT not lower) lowers CG and roll-center. That has real effects on geometry and handling.

Bilstein HD(20% stiffer but less stoke OEM bilsteins) and springs?

$900

You'll lose ride quality but decrease body movements slightly..


Grand Total for IWSS LGT spec. B "BETTER" suspension
---------------------------------------------------------------------

$3200 + labour(alignment, balancing, installing parts) + miscellaneous + downtime(Arranging alternative transportation) + downtime(Arranging alternative transportation for a few days)
$4700(LSD) + labour(alignment, balancing, installing parts) + miscellaneous + downtime(Arranging alternative transportation for a few days)

Sway bars?

Add another 300-400

$3600+ labour(alignment, balancing, installing parts) + miscellaneous + downtime(Arranging alternative transportation)
$5100(LSD)+ labour(alignment, balancing, installing parts) + miscellaneous + downtime(Arranging alternative transportation for a few days)

If your going to upgrade sways get the reinforcement bracket to stop yor from breaking OEM one.

$3690+ labour(alignment, balancing, installing parts) + miscellaneous + downtime(Arranging alternative transportation for a few days)
$5190(LSD)+labour(alignment, balancing, installing parts) + miscellaneous + downtime(Arranging alternative transportation for a few days)..


Labour is a contentious issue...

If you had someone else do all the work. There is absolutely no way your going to have a price advantage. However, I know people will say that most of this stuff is shade tree mechanic level. Altough, most people that buy a brand new car aren't eager to rip it up to add a bunch as soon as it rolls off the dealers lot.

I'm sorry, I do not see a price advatange over modding a LGT to spec. B(while introducing unwanted NVH in a daily driver) handling level.

Then your still forgetting interior touches, NAV, 6MT and single plate flywheel. If you want to compare the overall value of modding an LGT to spec. B levels.



I guess every tuner ever to turn a wrench on a sport sedan has just ruined the "OEM refinement" and the "overall driveability". Bunk. Well chosen and well tuned aftermarket can be just as good or better than OEM upgrades. Otherwise the aftermarket industry would be a shadow of it's actual size. If OEM refinement and overall driveability were so important, why would companies like RUF and Alpina, and many others exist? OEM refinement of Porsche and BMW is much better than Subaru, which I doubt anyone here argues.


RUF and Alpina?

Well going to them is the quickest way to spend more then the MSRP of your car, in basic mods. :lol:

Yes, you can get aftermarket parts that are better but most of the time your going to have to pay more.


I seriously, think you haven't driven a spec. B or weren't paying attention to the ride and how the suspension copes perfectly with any thing that gets thrown at it. However, after reading your "BUNK" comments about LSDs, I take your words with a grain of salt.

[Spec B]

Geeze...lets just all get along...for one thread at least.

[BigInALegacy]

Wow... this turned into the Spec B debate pretty fast! :lol:

Seriously... if your happy with your car, then who gives a s*** what anyone else thinks! They're not driving it! :D

[camber]

I'm still trying to figure out why people got out of the way to needlessly bash the spec. B in non sequitur threads...

Did a spec. B sleep with you mom and broke up your parents marriage or somethng?:confused::lol:

[BigInALegacy]

Different folks different strokes!

Spec B...GT

AT...MT

Whatever makes you happy. Bottom line is, we all love our LGT's which i why we're all on this site. :)

Oh... and were not getting anything cool that Japan will... its in SOA's strategic planning. ;)

[VTGT]

Hmm I may pick up a slightly used one of these in 2010 :) Too bad my 2005 still only has 20k miles....

[camber]

It's kinda hard to say where hi-po sedans will go with the new CAFE rules on the horizon. I hope Subaru sticks to its guns and keeps churning out sporty cars but you never know.

It looks like alot of the bigger cars are either getting downsized or smaller engines. Maybe, Subaru will think a little bit harder about growing the Legacy.

[sickdrift]

You realize I'm taking about the aspect ratio between the sidewall and the part of the tire that contacts the road?

Yeah huh. Spec B's and GT's share the same sidewall height, which should be roughtly 3.8" tall.

The LGT wears a 215/45R17 and the sB wears a 215/45R18, dumb but true. We should have been given 215/40R18's, and our sidewalls would have been only 3.4" tall. But I suspect SOA assumed that would make the sB ride too rough.

[Visionhu]

What do you think guys? I'm in love :wub:

Hope it is not a repost ;)

http://www.subaru.jp/as2008/e_car/details/details7.html

http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/05_l.jpg
http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/13_l.jpg
http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/08_l.jpg
http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/12_l.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/trev2/06_l543.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/trev2/01_l12.jpg

[SubLGTaru]

It's drop dead sexy!

[Gire]

:drool:

I'll take the brake and wheel package... as soon as I win the lottery of course!

[tractorcrusher]

Looks pretty nice, but the Escalade-looking fender holes are a bit pointless... I'm digging the quad exhaust.

[sebberry]

I hope it has an engine to go with those brakes! :eek:

Might be enough to get me to give up the wagon..

[SubLGTaru]

I love the front of the car, it's perfect IMO.

[Hanger]

I'll soooooo take one in GRP! :wub:

[praedet]

Threads merged... ;)

[BigInALegacy]

I'm diggin the carbon fiber trim and the push-button STi start!

[LittleBlueGT]

From a guy that says he works at a dealer:

pricing will be $38k base and almost $45k with all the goodies. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/images/smilies/banana.gif


And yes, I work at a dealer. Preliminary info has already been sent to us. Techs will be going to new model update training in march.

a newer design engine that they are being a bit shady about releasing details about at this time. But it is a boosted 4 as far as I can tell, although, a boosted h6 is not out of the question, as the dimensions of this car are bigger than current legacys, 3.5" longer and 1.75" wider.

I would never joke about my next car. Its part of the reason I sold my STi. So I could start saving my pennies, and not be tempted to keep moddin it.

[camber]

Yeah huh. Spec B's and GT's share the same sidewall height, which should be roughtly 3.8" tall.

The LGT wears a 215/45R17 and the sB wears a 215/45R18, dumb but true. We should have been given 215/40R18's, and our sidewalls would have been only 3.4" tall. But I suspect SOA assumed that would make the sB ride too rough.

D'oh... My bad...... Well, at least I can admit when I'm wrong. Unlike like some other people around here...

[camber]

From a guy that says he works at a dealer:


People, at the dealership always seem like the last people that know anything. There were rumours that a tuned by STI legacy was supposed to be hitting North America that was supposed to be shown at SEMA. However, nothing happened and alot of reputable people chimed in on that thread..

[LittleBlueGT]

People, at the dealership always seem like the last people that know anything. There were rumours that a tuned by STI legacy was supposed to be hitting North America that was supposed to be shown at SEMA. However, nothing happened and alot of reputable people chimed in on that thread..


Well Debbie Downer, I am going to remain hopeful.

:)

[pengwin]

is that a wiper on the rear windshield?

[camber]

Well Debbie Downer, I am going to remain hopeful.

:)


Hey now!

I'm hoping that we get a super Legacy model in North America. Personally, I just don't think it will be during the bl/bp generation of models.

[LittleBlueGT]

Hey now!

I'm hoping that we get a super Legacy model in North America. Personally, I just don't think it will be during the bl/bp generation of models.

JK buddy.:wub:


I need to get another 3 or 4 years out of my current LGT (hopefully on the same block!) before I buy my next one. I would just prefer it come out a year before I buy so others can get first crack at experimenting on the new motor and suspension. I also want Subaru to get all the bugs out.

[chenc544]

http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/05_l.jpg



OK, functional fender vent is overdone but I can live with it, but fake ones are just lame... :mad:

[paycer]

^That fender vent pictured has honeycombed shaped holes that look awfully filled up with plastic! Unless the leading edge of the bottom set of honeycombs is punched out, we've gone some pretty ghey, decorative "vents" going on there..... I'm with chenc though, if there are holes punched through the fender creating real vents I might be cool with it. Or rather the engine might be.

[William WRX]

About five months ago I decided to get a new car after five years of driving a Ford Escort, and my wife's old Outback. After doing the reaserch, I ended up with two contenders. The LGT (no Spec B in PR) and a G35. After driving both and doing the math I bought a G35S. Main reasons were Luxury Appointments in the G, looks and power (I'm sure a modded Legacy is faster than the G, but in this point of my life I don't have the time or desire to be modding cars). Sure the G35 was more expensive, but it included more of the stuff I wanted.

Now if the LGT came with HID's, 18" wheels with real tires, A real sound system, better interior materials, and about 280 Hp's, I would have gotten the Leggy.

BTW If Subaru decides to make al LSTi I'll buy one in a sec. I love Subarus.

William

[camber]

An unmodded Legact GT is faster in most aceleration tests then then any year G35/37. Unfortunately, as the G has picked up power it's gain a significant bit of weight which kills performance.

Nissan has said they are looking at minimum reductions of 15% weight across all their next generation models..

[chenc544]

Nissan has said they are looking at minimum reductions of 15% weight across all their next generation models..

I read that too, if they can do that I will be very impressed. 15% of ~3600 lb car like G35x is 540 lbs. :eek:

[Jacks GT]

Good lord, that is under-rated.

A twin scroll 2.5 liter making only 276hp and 253 lb.ft. That should be capable of 335hp and 300+ lb.ft. with nothing more than an ECU tune, and a good down-pipe.

Ok... let's break this down, what is different and the same as the Spec B we already get, and things that the WRX STI has.

USDM Spec B -- USDM WRX STI -- Legacy S concept.
2.5 turbo -- same -- same, plus twin scroll, but that is no extra parts, just different.
6MT, no DCCD -- 6MT DCCD -- 6MT no DCCD (but should)
subaru brakes -- Brembo 4-piston -- Brembo 6-piston
Bilsteins -- Bilsteins -- Bilsteins and pinks (but then so do all JDM STI vehicles)
Leather -- Leather optional -- Leather
cast wheels -- forged BBS optional -- forged BBS
NAV standard -- NAV optional -- NAV not present, but probably optional
~34999 -- ~34999 (+4k for options) -- Unknown for US market.

Other than some carbon trim pieces from the STI accessory catalog, they are fairly closely matched. Also, a US model would probably not get the twin-scroll, so standard 2.5 GT engine, maybe STI turbo and intake setup. It would probably gain a sunroof, also, since every other sedan has it besides the 2.5i base and SE. Less cost to put sunroof roof skins and headliners in everything... and we know how Subaru loves option choices.

Spec B is overpriced for it's equipment. The Legacy S loses the nav from that, so minus 2k. Adds brakes and wheels. +2k back in (net, considering part swap, not addition) Maybe SPT exhaust and intake standard, so +1K more.

I could easily see an STI-branded Legacy S in the US market for 36k, if the Spec B were to move down to $32k fully equipped, with Nav optional, and full color choice. (it would be moved down from it's top-of-line market position anyway) GT Limited similarly moving down below $28k well equipped, maybe even ~26k, if we were really lucky.

The Forester thread mentions something besides the Forester being shown at Detroit. Maybe it is a Legacy S for the US market... but somehow I am not holding my breath.

But if this car does arrive north of 40k, it will only continue subaru's streak of missing the mark.

The Legacy, as great of a car as I think it is, cannot compete with the 335i and G35x Touring or 6MT sport above 40k. It doesn't have enough interior amenities, and it is still a turbo 4, which has a certain market perception.

The Legacy S is what the Spec B should be, where the Spec B is priced. The Spec B is what $30-32k should be buying, and the 2.5 GT Limited is getting rebated anyway, so why not price it well below 30k, closer to $25-27k.


Sidebar:
The Mitsubishi Evo GSR just got official. 33k. (this is the one WITHOUT the big time transmission. Three 2000$ option packages, a 400$ disc changer, and a 400$ aluminum shifter, e-brake and leather boot package. The thing tops out north of $42K. FOR A HOPPED UP ECONOMY CAR!!! The STI is not as bad, but probably close enough.

The economy is not headed in that direction. consumer debt is getting out of hand, and the market is contracting. I can't think that the market is going to continue to support $30k and headed to $40k as the median price for average to somewhat nice cars.

There is certainly no way this Legacy S is $60k USD. It wouldn't sell ten units. It would have a hard time above $37k, no matter how sweet I think it is. Take a look at Mazdaspeed6 rebates to sell the remaining units. There may even be a 2007 Spec B left-over on the Ramsey Subaru lot in Des Moines, and it was marked down to ~$32k last time I saw it.

You, my friend need to go get a job at SOA and sort hem out lol

[psi365]

Hey now!

I'm hoping that we get a super Legacy model in North America. Personally, I just don't think it will be during the bl/bp generation of models.

I kiind of disagree with you on this. Being the fact this is about the end of this body LGT its very possible they would make a LSTi. My reasoning is that they could easily push out a few hundred extra cars by making it. A lot of manufacturers have been know to come out with special editions at the end of body style life. Dodge came out with the SRT4 Neon until the Neion was discontinued. Audi makes special edtions all the time at the end of a body. Hell Subaru sold 800 extra STis when they made the STi Limited in 07. I just don't think they'll make it cause they never bring the real "good" subarus to the north american market.

[BigInALegacy]

You, my friend need to go get a job at SOA and sort hem out lol

Everyone keeps telling you that IWSS... I think you should apply! :D

[camber]

I kiind of disagree with you on this. Being the fact this is about the end of this body LGT its very possible they would make a LSTi. My reasoning is that they could easily push out a few hundred extra cars by making it. A lot of manufacturers have been know to come out with special editions at the end of body style life. Dodge came out with the SRT4 Neon until the Neion was discontinued. Audi makes special edtions all the time at the end of a body. Hell Subaru sold 800 extra STis when they made the STi Limited in 07. I just don't think they'll make it cause they never bring the real "good" subarus to the north american market.

Well, what is being talked about in this thread is a new drivetrain. Which would requires getting recertified for emissions and fuel consumption. Also, if they put a new drivetrain in the BL/BP it would be required to be crash tested again. That's a lot of expense for a limited run for just one year.

They could possible do this if there is alot of carry over to the new gen Legacy. However, that has been rumoured to be based off the Tribeca platform.

Personally, I think a bigger Legacy is a mistake and Subaru should just create a new bigger sedan model.

[Bbc84]

An unmodded Legact GT is faster in most aceleration tests then then any year G35/37. Unfortunately, as the G has picked up power it's gain a significant bit of weight which kills performance.

Nissan has said they are looking at minimum reductions of 15% weight across all their next generation models..


+1 My friend and I went to dyno, he has a stock 07' G35x w/ the 306hp VQ. dynoed only ~230whp and 201wtq. My stock 08' LGT dynoed in at 220whp and 251wtq. and his car weights about 300-400lbs heavier than the legacy too.

I dont think the g35x will be faster than the legacy. Looks nice though.

[psi365]

Well, what is being talked about in this thread is a new drivetrain. Which would requires getting recertified for emissions and fuel consumption. Also, if they put a new drivetrain in the BL/BP it would be required to be crash tested again. That's a lot of expense for a limited run for just one year.

They could possible do this if there is alot of carry over to the new gen Legacy. However, that has been rumoured to be based off the Tribeca platform.

Personally, I think a bigger Legacy is a mistake and Subaru should just create a new bigger sedan model.

Very true, but the powertrain could always be a carry over to the next platform Legacy. They may be willing to test a few expecially if they already have the parts on the shelves for other markets. Again I doubt the US will see it either.

[oddseth]

Very true, but the powertrain could always be a carry over to the next platform Legacy. They may be willing to test a few expecially if they already have the parts on the shelves for other markets. Again I doubt the US will see it either.

I would even be happy with the STi turbo on the legacy - I am sure with some minor tweaks they could get it just north of 300 hp while still maintaining a somewhat smooth power delivery (without requiring new emissions testing). With that engine and the 'tuned by sti' suspension, drivetrain, break, and cosmetic upgrades, we would have one sweet car. In terms of performance, it would be a poor man's 335i.

[IwannaSportSedan]

You, my friend need to go get a job at SOA and sort hem out lol

Thanks very much for the complement.

I'm entertaining offers... :D

[psi365]

I would even be happy with the STi turbo on the legacy - I am sure with some minor tweaks they could get it just north of 300 hp while still maintaining a somewhat smooth power delivery (without requiring new emissions testing). With that engine and the 'tuned by sti' suspension, drivetrain, break, and cosmetic upgrades, we would have one sweet car. In terms of performance, it would be a poor man's 335i.

Camber was correct when he said that you would have to get the car recertified. You would really be surprised that the smallest of changes require the car to get recertified for. Even if they use parts from another car in their own line up (such as borrowing the the turbo, intake, etc from the Wrx STi) they would need to get the car emission and mileage recertified. Their best bet would be to use parts from the existing LSTi that is in other markets and work till it would meet US standards.

[HAMMER DOWN]

^^^ I can a test to that. When I tried get info from SOA on my STi 6MT swap. That was thier line. It don't matter if the part was on the shelf & test in another car. If wasn't test in that car's model yr. It must be recertified. For ex. 6MT is in 07 Spec.B, because it wasn't tested in the 05 GT [same body] they could not recommend the swap or help me in any way.

Mike

[Mach V Dan]

What's interesting is that they widened the front fenders...but not the rears. I'm assuming because it's a lot more complicated to make a new piece for that section, while the front fenders are a simple adjustment to the mold/easy to one-off.

One of the Subaru guys told me that was exactly why -- it would be too costly to do the rear widebody.

--Dan
Mach V
FastWRX.com (www.fastwrx.com)

[lkjohnson1950]

Subaru has the same mindset that Cadillac used to have: Take care of your existing best customers first. Those people buy N/A 2.5 Outbacks and Foresters. We are a very small part of the Subaru market in the US. Subaru's "Halo Car" is the 3.0 Outback LL Bean edition. Subaru used to be afraid to bring the WRX to the US because rallying isn't popular here and they thought we wouldn't get it. Now they're afraid to bring a LSTI here because it would take marketshare from the WRX STI. SOA also thinks of themselves as competitors with Camry and Accord when the LGT and SpecB are more in line with TSX, A4 etc. Check out the few ads they did run for the Leggy, emphasizing AWD not near luxury class high performance. I bought my LGT because it was obviously faster than the G35, TL, IS300, S40T-5 etc I test drove at the same time. And no one at the Subaru dealership wondered why I wanted a MT or tried to tell me I couldn't get one unless I took whatever color, wheels etc they could get. I recognise that for Subaru I am a minority buyer. That's why they spend their money on stuff for the Outbacks and Foresters not the LGT. Do I want a better sound system? You bet!! And many other things that G35, 328, A4 etc owners take for granted, but I won't hold my breath waiting for them because I am not SOA's main market. Would I buy a LSTI? If I could afford it, but the LGT dinged my budget pretty hard, so it couldn't be too much more expensive. Oh well! I can wish and hope, that's free.

[sickdrift]

Oh well! I can wish and hope, that's free.

Not for long. We've been taxed on dreams for years in CA.

[edkwon]

The fender vents aren't such a bad idea. One of the shops i had my car worked on notes there are internal engine bay vents that go out to the front fenders. Having functional external vents might actually help get rid of underhood heat.

[al-gorithm]

http://www.carview.co.jp/tas/2008/take_car/sclabo_tokyo_blomulus/default.asp?p=5

Me likey! I want this diffuser... i don't care if it's rice...

[BigInALegacy]

I dunno about the diffuser... I like the exhaust garnishes better than that I think.

Those wheels are god awful though! :hide:

[nemo]

mmm... i wonder how much it would cost to get one of those push buttons.

[Leonardo]

God, now we won't hear the end of it from Agency Power on how the exhaust looks like theirs! :lol:

[GIlegacy]

the yellow one looks like a fugging cavalier

[loserpro2]

according to the link posted which appeared on the front page of the site, there are two things at the moment which i find most noticeable is that the Legacy S concept has 6 Pot Brakes in front and 2 in the back. but wouldn't that mean the brake bias would be seriously more to the front?

i know that one person in HK has actually went ahead to try 6 pot in front and 4 pot in the back which is already SERIOUS stopping power but with a difference in 6 and 2 pots...i'm really wondering how is the stopping power gonna be like for the S concept.

and after taking a minute to use the Excite website to translate the text....
It is ultimate Regashi in the development concept that can experience the start of the supremacy that STI presents as for "Ultimate grand touring car". A special engine of 2.5L turbo is installed, and the power-up in a flat torque and the high rotation region from the low rotation is achieved at the same time.
1. Reception desk lip spoiler(carbon)
2. Front grille
3. Widening reception desk fender
4. Money belonging Totonotosou Doamirar
5. Riyaspoirar
6. Genuine leather seat
7. Panel trims
8. Black interior trim
9. Shift knob
10. Saidoshilprat
11. Carpet mat
12. Reinforced transmission
13. Painting engine cover
14. Sports muffler
15. F opposing 6pot Brembobraki
16. R opposing 2pot Brembobraki
17. F2 piece disk rotor (Φ340)
18. R disk rotor (Φ316)
19. Bilshutainsaspention
20. Coil spring
21. F flexible tower bar
22. BBS aluminum foil (18×8.0J)
23. Bridgestone Tire Co., Ltd.(235/40R18)


so...in proper english terms - only rewriting the list
1. front lip spoiler(carbon)
2. Front grille
3. Widened fender
4. Money belonging Totonotosou Doamirar (no clue what it is)
5. Riyaspoirar (no clue again)
6. Genuine leather seat
7. Panel trims
8. Black interior trim
9. Shift knob
10. Saidoshilprat (no clue again x2)
11. Carpet mat
12. Reinforced transmission
13. Painted engine cover
14. Sports muffler
15. Front 6pot brembo brakes
16. Rear 2pot Brembo brakes
17. F2 piece disk rotor (Φ340)
18. R disk rotor (Φ316)
19. Bilshutainsaspention
20. Coil spring
21. F flexible tower bar
22. BBS aluminum foil (18×8.0J) [that means the rims like 99% sure i think)
23. Bridgestone Tire Co., Ltd.(235/40R18)

[Japanparts]

an NA sti...how pointless.

The Legacy S is planned as a 2.5L Turbo; but no "2008" model released in Japan yet, and the specification *will* change from the Auto Salon model

GW

[Japanparts]

The Legacy S is planned as a 2.5L Turbo; but no "2008" model released in Japan yet, and the specification *will* change from the Auto Salon model

GW

Features of the AUTO SALON model ( which may, or may not, correspond to what Subaru actually produce for an S or STi '08 )


1. front lip spoiler(carbon)
2. Front grille
3. Widened fenders
4. Retractible door mirrors
5. Rear Spoiler
6. Genuine leather seats
7. Panel trims
8. Black interior trim
9. Shift knob
10. Sidesill pair
11. Carpet mats
12. Reinforced transmission
13. Painted engine cover
14. Sports muffler
15. Front 6pot brembo brakes
16. Rear 2pot Brembo brakes
17. F2 piece disk rotor (Φ340)
18. R disk rotor (Φ316)
19. Bilstein suspension
20. Uprated Coil springs
21. F flexible tower bar
22. BBS aluminum Wheels (18×8.0J)
23. Bridgestone Tires Co.(235/40R18)

GW

[BigT]

I've got to be honest, unless I see a bump in power (from a new turbo), it's really not worth it for me. I'm stage two with brembo's and bilsteins already. Plus that would mean that it would just be more expensive stuff I was pulling off the car to mod it. The only advantage I could see would be the 6speed tranny.

[camber]

21. F flexible tower bar

Most likely a tower bar with a damper on it

[Kompleks]

and copy and paste http://www.subaru.jp/as2008/e_car/details/details7.html into the website translation section. :)

[LittleBlueGT]

6 pot fronts do not necessarily mean more clamping force. (each piston is smaller, depends if the combined area is smaller then a 4-pot, and it also depends on a whole bunch of other stuff)

Either way the Master Cylinder will be engineered to apportion the pressure correctly.

[stewartg]

http://google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.subaru.jp%2Fas2008%2F e_car%2Fdetails%2Fdetails7.html&langpair=ja|en&hl=en&ie=UTF8 (http://google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.subaru.jp%2Fas2008%2F e_car%2Fdetails%2Fdetails7.html&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8)

[lkjohnson1950]

Whatever it ends up being, Its not coming here. Bet on it.

[SubieDriver]

I beli