Stick or Auto

[legacy2ner]

I think im going to end up with a auto because i have a stick WRX and my parents cant drive stick.

[Tide]

Most likely stick here, although I will test drive the new sport shift before making a final decision. My girlfriend though probably won't let me get an automatic. What's odd about that. :lol:

[team23jordan]

stick for me too
this should be a poll question

[SUBE555]

Hands down! STICK!

[gtguy]

Another stickmeister in the house, though the new autobox is supposed to be verrry slick.

Kevin

[PPower]

Stick. I don't trust the auto to be able to handle the extra power I will want to add over time. This assumes that it gets to be fully my car. If it has to be shared with the wife, I'm sure an automatic will be in the cards. But then if I'm looking at an automatic, I may have to go back and reconsider a G35 since performance obviously wouldn't be all about the performance any more.

The automatic's performance is going to be crutial since that's the majority of what will sell. I just haven't been impressed with the reviews I've seen so far of the automatic. There has been some kind of sticking up for the auto that it may be quirky for about the first 5000 miles or so. That doesn't bode well for magazine tests and new car test drives. I would hate to be the salesman trying to say, "Yes, it's not as good as XXXX's auto right now, but it will be after you've broken it in. You're just going to have to trust me." "Yeah right!" they think to themselves.

[EJ20H-TT]

The only bad things I have heard is that Journo's doing Banzai laps on the track tend to overheat the autobox and it goes into self protect mode.

Which shouldn't be a prob for most buyers.

What bad things have u heard ?

[PPower]

I'm bad at being able to bring up the specific reviews, but there have been several from the UK that gave less than glowing reviews of the automatic. It was said to be slow in its shifts like the computer was having difficulty determining what gear it needed. It might have been Autocar or EVO that gave the explanation that this was somewhat typical of Subaru automatics and it would undoubtedly improve after a few thousand (5k?) miles. I'm guessing that this break-in period is really a learning curve for the auto's computer and would thus shift more or less sporty depending on how it was driven during this learning time. For whatever it's worth, the Magneti-Marelli F1/Cambiacorsa transmissions in Ferrari/Maserati do this as well. They "learn" to shift more aggressively or conservative depending on how it is driven in the first few thousand miles.

[Dr. Zevil]

I am on the fence. I would like to try the auto, but I think that it might be a waste of time in a car like this. It just seems like a luxury car needs an auto. I might be going crazy. I like the idea of switching gears from the wheel though :D Although I don't trust the auto to provide adequate performance.

[AMT4SWA]

I actually like the E-Shift in my IS300 so I will buy the GT with the 5 AT "SportShift", also my wife does not drice a MT...how sad!

We might see a Transmission oil cooler mod for the 5 AT models if overheating seems to be a problem (simple mod).

[gtmy04]

I actually like the E-Shift in my IS300 so I will buy the GT with the 5 AT "SportShift", also my wife does not drice a MT...how sad!

We might see a Transmission oil cooler mod for the 5 AT models if overheating seems to be a problem (simple mod).

I've had my GT since mid-November and it's been through a Brisbane summer with many 40+°C days, some heavy driving and no sign of over-heating. There was a sticker on the driver's door (it got removed the first day) warning that if the AT Temp. light came on don't drive it in manual mode.

Why did I get the Auto? No choice in Australia yet - the rumour is there'll be a 6-speed manual offered around September, so the US might get it on release. I'm pretty happy with the auto - it's got some real smart electronics controlling it.

[EJ20H-TT]

Great you have a GT -

we need pictures -

tells how she handles

[gtmy04]

Haven't taken any yet, I'll post some tomorrow.

Handling is very impressive, very flat sticks like glue. Easily handles curves at twice recommended speed.

[gtguy]

Why did I get the Auto? No choice in Australia yet - the rumour is there'll be a 6-speed manual offered around September, so the US might get it on release. I'm pretty happy with the auto - it's got some real smart electronics controlling it.

Hmmmm...interesting. Is it a lightened version of the 6-speed? The word has been that the existing speed (seen in the STi) is too heavy for the Legacy.

Kevin

[dark_rex]

Most likely stick here, although I will test drive the new sport shift before making a final decision. My girlfriend though probably won't let me get an automatic. What's odd about that. :lol:

same here. :) we must have cool g/fs

dR

[bgsntth]

By all means, a Manual. I've always felt that automatics and 4 cylinders never make a great combo, but I may be proven wrong. Plus, I like to row my own gears.

[EJ20H-TT]

Autos and turbos do work well together

[gtmy04]

Why did I get the Auto? No choice in Australia yet - the rumour is there'll be a 6-speed manual offered around September, so the US might get it on release. I'm pretty happy with the auto - it's got some real smart electronics controlling it.

Hmmmm...interesting. Is it a lightened version of the 6-speed? The word has been that the existing speed (seen in the STi) is too heavy for the Legacy.

Kevin

I believe it is a new or substantially new box - not the one currently in the WRX STi. This would explain the delay in the release.

[SUBE555]

Modulating a clutch and rowing the box is a big plus for me. Only sucks when you injure your clutch foot. :rolleyes:

[kage]

I can't think of any reason I'd want to own an automatic ever again. My last automatic was a hand-me-down 1981 Ford Fairmont. *Shudders*

[Tide]

Most likely stick here, although I will test drive the new sport shift before making a final decision. My girlfriend though probably won't let me get an automatic. What's odd about that. :lol:

same here. :) we must have cool g/fs

dR
She wanted to register here as Mrs. Tide. I had to say no to that. Were not married yet! But hey at least she's cool with my new Legacy addiction. :D

[legacy92ej22t]

Definitely a 5MT here unless the 6MT becomes available then I'd get that.

My wife can't drive stick and that's a good thing. She doesn't get to drive my 92 Legacy turbo either :wink:

[AMT4SWA]

I really think there will be a 6 spd MT down the road (06 or later model year), but it will be a part of a higher Hp/Trq model variant like a STI version or something similar. They want the car to get into the market place here and get sorted first, then they will bring a higher performance version...we will get the cake first and then they will serve the ICE CREAM! :lol:

[PPower]

gtmy04, could you give us a review of the automatic? Have you driven any other cars with this type transmission to be able to compare its shifting speed or anything? As I've written above, I just haven't been impressed with other manual shifting automatics. Maybe this would be a good opportunity to test out an Altezza or something.

[gurpman]

Any clue how the sport shift will perform? I've never driven one. Do modern sport shifts provide smooth and almost instantaneous shifts? Are there annoying overrides that prevent a shift in certain situations?

I've been planning on getting a manual, but an auto would be nice in rush hour traffic or when I have food in my lap (shame on me!). Is an auto with sport shift really the best of both worlds or is it a bad compromise?

Also, as I understand it, the AWD system is different between the auto and manual. Which is considered superior?

Thanks for any insights.

[AMT4SWA]

I currently drive an IS300 (Altezza) with E-Shift and I actually really like it. E-Shift is a steering wheel button activated 5 spd AT exactly like the new Subaru "Sportshift" with a fully automatic mode or a manual "Sportshift" mode (you use a button to up and down shift...no clutch).

[gtmy04]

I'll try to keep this relatively brief, but I could probably fill a few pages. Firstly, this is how the 5AT operates (and I wasn't fully aware of all this until after I got the car).

In 'D' it operates as a standard auto. The shifts are very smooth and in most cases imperceptable. At any time you can use one of the steering wheel buttons to change up or down (within rev/road speed limits). The unit 'senses' the conditions and will hold that gear until conditions change e.g. you're cruising in 5, flick the '-' button twice to shift back to 3 to overtake, the tranny will hold 3 until you ease off the gas or flick the '+' button to change up. If you do ease off the auto will change back up and revert to 'D' mode. The transmission has yaw sensors to recognise when you're hammering it around a long curve (read freeway on-ramps, etc) and will hold the gear. In most cases this works very well, although it can sometimes be fooled e.g. if you shift down and then ease off for a moment and then hit the gas again to find it's in 5th. In 'D' the green 'D' light on the dash is on until you manually shift, then the gear indicator comes on with an up and/or down arrow to let you know which gear you can grab.

When you shift the lever to the right (I assume it may be to the left in US cars??) it goes into 'Sport' mode. Sport is basically 'D' with higher shift points, etc. Just an interesting side issue - Sport is deactivated when the cruise control is turned on :?: :!:

In 'Sport' you have a SPORT light lit on the dash and the gear indicator operates, but without the up and down shift arrows - because the auto is still doing the work.

From Sport you can now use either the buttons or the shift lever to step into Manual mode. The SPORT light goes off, and the up/down arrows appear at the appropriate time. What I like about the manual mode is the transmission will not think it's smarter than you and try and change. The exception is when you're lazy and slow down for lights, etc it will change down when the road speed is too low to maintain a gear. But it will hold a lower gear up to (and after) the rev limiter cuts in.

I've driven both Audi A4 and our local Ford Falcon, and neither system comes close - because sooner or later the transmission will intervene and think it's time for a change. These in my opinion are gimmicky and just get annoying, so that you just end up using the car as a full auto. The Subaru is enjoyable to drive every day, and the local press have also given it rave reviews saying it's probably the best auto they've driven (inc BMW, etc).

Anyway, bet you're glad I kept it brief.

Peter

[PPower]

Also, as I understand it, the AWD system is different between the auto and manual. Which is considered superior?

Thanks for any insights.

The auto has a better AWD system. Like the WRX, the automatic gets VTD Variable Torque Distribution which I understand to be very close to the auto mode of the STi's DCCD. It uses a planetary center differential with an electronically managed continuously variable transfer clutch. There was somebody on NASIOC from the ole trunkmonkey crew who has done a LOT of experimentation with this setup. I may have to check out www.trunkmonkey.com to see if there is information there.

Basically, you can do rally style e-brake turns in the auto, but you better not try it in the manual. What I want to know is why we can't get VTD in the manual transmission cars. I always seem to get VDC (vehicle dynamics control) of the Outback mixed up with VTD. Anybody else? I have ahard time believing that traction control is really needed in these cars but whatever.

[EJ20H-TT]

Thx for that - very well written

That's auto sounds very impressive.

Anybody out there thinking twice about the manual now ?

[team23jordan]

my left foot gets really bored when i drive automatic
and that's one of the reason i'm gettin manual :)

[PPower]

more, Peter. MORE!

[PPower]

my left foot gets really bored when i drive automatic
and that's one of the reason i'm gettin manual :)

Does your right hand get bored as well? :shock: ;)

[team23jordan]

yah that too
but not as much as my left foot

[gtmy04]

more, Peter. MORE!

If I had the option when I bought the GT, I would've gone for a manual - but I don't regret it now. I'd suggest anyone considering th GT take both auto and manual for a decent drive before you make a decision.

Peter

[team23jordan]

Ppower
you have coolest name ever! 8)
usually pimps have name "PETER" :lol:

[gtmy04]

Ppower
you have coolest name ever! 8)
usually pimps have name "PETER" :lol:

Notice I haven't filled in occupation in my profile (if I was I reckon I'd have all your money).

[PPower]

Ppower
you have coolest name ever! 8)
usually pimps have name "PETER" :lol:

Actually, it's Preston. :lol: My dad's name is Richard (goes by that), so Dick isn't too far from Peter. :lol:

If I have a daughter, her name will be Portia Power cause I love the name and it just rawks with Power. Portia Carrera Power? nah, that's too much.

[goneskiian]

Anybody out there thinking twice about the manual now ?

OK. I'm considering it now. I would have jumped right in with a vote for manual but this sounds really cool. 8) :lol:

Guess I'll have to drive 'em both. :wink: :wink:

-Ian

[Dr. Zevil]

I am thinking twice about the manual. i think it would be a lot of fun to drive with the psuedo-manumatic. I like the idea of being able to hit the ebrake and get sideways quicker around corners in snow and such. I WANT TO HEAR MORE ABOUT IT!!

[Kasugai]

I currently drive a Land Rover Freelander with the sport mode option and frankly, I've engaged it maybe once or twice. I don't know, call me old-fashioned but this option just doesn't feel like driving a manual - which I think of as real driving. All decisions - good and bad- in manual driving are mine, never to be intruded upon by some computer that thinks it knows better. Sorry to anthropomorphize. I really, really miss my GT. :(

[AMT4SWA]

How different are the two AWD systems that are tied to the two separate transmissions...I do not have any previous Scooby experience and this could make a difference for some with their choice...lets get real technical on this if you would, because I want to learn something new! :)

[PPower]

The only difference in the AWD system is the center differential. The VTD is essentially like a limited slip because it disengages power going to slipping wheels and transfers power to the other wheels. This is why you can do e-brake turns without affecting the AWD. The rear wheels are "slipping", so the power is transferred to the front wheels. The manual transmission car with the lack of adjustable center differential (center lsd let's call it) will have all wheels receiving the same amount of power all the time. If you pull the emergency brake with the gas pedal, the rears are still going to be trying to move. You'll end up breaking the e-brake or something in the drivetrain. It would not be pretty. This is an extreme example since you shouldn't ever be doing e-brake turns anyway, but it is good to show the point.

In the STi, the DCCD (Driver Controlled Center Differential) can be adjusted for forward, rear or anything in between bias. On snow, forward bias is supposed to be better, and rearward would be preferred on the track. It also has an AUTO mode that most people will keep it in at all times. This auto mode is the VTD. To learn about it, you should really look up DCCD threads as there is much more expertise than I can gather. This is just the little bit that I remember and as I remember it.

[gurpman]

The manual transmission car with the lack of adjustable center differential (center lsd let's call it) will have all wheels receiving the same amount of power all the time.

I was under the impression that both AWD systems (manual and auto) send more torque to the front or rear when slippage occurs. The manual has 50/50 front/rear torque split only under normal conditions. Do you disagree or did I misunderstand your post? The AWD on the auto splits torque 35/65 front/rear under normal conditions.

It seems like if you lock the rear wheels with the e-brake, the front wheels are "slipping", so more torque will be sent to the rear, causing possible damage. Maybe I'm dense but I don't understand why this wouldn't happen with both AWD systems.

[team23jordan]

The only difference in the AWD system is the center differential. The VTD is essentially like a limited slip because it disengages power going to slipping wheels and transfers power to the other wheels. This is why you can do e-brake turns without affecting the AWD. The rear wheels are "slipping", so the power is transferred to the front wheels. The manual transmission car with the lack of adjustable center differential (center lsd let's call it) will have all wheels receiving the same amount of power all the time. If you pull the emergency brake with the gas pedal, the rears are still going to be trying to move. You'll end up breaking the e-brake or something in the drivetrain. It would not be pretty. This is an extreme example since you shouldn't ever be doing e-brake turns anyway, but it is good to show the point.

In the STi, the DCCD (Driver Controlled Center Differential) can be adjusted for forward, rear or anything in between bias. On snow, forward bias is supposed to be better, and rearward would be preferred on the track. It also has an AUTO mode that most people will keep it in at all times. This auto mode is the VTD. To learn about it, you should really look up DCCD threads as there is much more expertise than I can gather. This is just the little bit that I remember and as I remember it.

so legacy's AWD's always 50/50?? is that what you are saying?? :?:

[AMT4SWA]

So if this is the case then the 5 spd Auto has a HUGE advantage over the 5 spd manual in adverse driving conditions (rain, snow, ice, hard cornering)? Help me out here...why would Subaru set this up this way...I'm confused???

[PPower]

The manual transmission car with the lack of adjustable center differential (center lsd let's call it) will have all wheels receiving the same amount of power all the time.

I was under the impression that both AWD systems (manual and auto) send more torque to the front or rear when slippage occurs. The manual has 50/50 front/rear torque split only under normal conditions. Do you disagree or did I misunderstand your post? The AWD on the auto splits torque 35/65 front/rear under normal conditions.

It seems like if you lock the rear wheels with the e-brake, the front wheels are "slipping", so more torque will be sent to the rear, causing possible damage. Maybe I'm dense but I don't understand why this wouldn't happen with both AWD systems.

Somebody please correct me as I need it often. I understood that the torque split stays 50/50 all the time. It is only on the automatic that varies the torque front to rear because of the VTD.

About the e-brake turn, I'm sure I didn't explain it properly. The wheels stopping from pulling the brake would not be the same as slipping. I don't really know how to technically explain it. With the center differential being able to transfer back and forth f/r, it is going to be more OK for the front to be spinning and the rears stopped. When power is sent equally f/r all the time, surely you can see how locking the rears is going to cause a problem to the driveshafts. the front still wants to turn, but the rear is at a stop. :shock: Something has to give, and it won't be cheap whatever it is.

Why does Subaru set it up this way? Maybe it is to give more incentive to buy an automatic. It is this way on the Impreza line as well, yet the manual still handles better. Just like how many people dispute the value of DCCD, the value of VTD (DCCD-auto mode) may also be questioned. I would prefer a front lsd over the center any day.

For those wondering about how the auto handles compared to the manual, you should hunt down a copy of Best Motoring from August (I believe). Included in the wagon test were Audi RS6, Spec B manual, Spec B auto, Toyota Caldina, and Volvo V70 T-5.
1. Legacy Spec B (5MT)
lap1- 1'15"06
lap2- 1'09"61
lap3- 1'09"71
TOTAL 3'34"37
2. Audi RS6 Avant
lap1- 1'15"70
lap2- 1'09"69
lap3- 1'10"66
TOTAL 3'36"05
3. Legacy Spec B (5AT)
lap1- 1'19"55
lap2- 1'12"31
lap3- 1'12"50
TOTAL 3'44"36
4. Toyota Caldina
lap1- 1'19"07
lap2- 1'13"62
lap3- 1'12"68
TOTAL 3'45"37
5. Volvo T-5 (why not V70R?)
lap1- 1'23"06
lap2- 1'16"63
lap3- 1'16"40
TOTAL 3'56"09

[PPower]

Since I'm not an expert, I figured I would search for VTD where I know there are some. I did find enough info to say DO NOT, DO NOT do e-brake turns w/ or w/o VTD. I am not sure of the exact differences between VTD and DCCD-A, but it could be that VTD is more like the last generation DCCD-Auto that johnfelstead has in his STi V RA. Read the following threads if you like to get an edumacation:

DCCD Discussion thread (merged) (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=296350&highlight=VTD)

A walk-through of the VTD-AWD system... (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=2371342)

4EAT "center diff" Question (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=286159&highlight=VTD) This shows WRX VTD to be 45/55 f/r split under normal conditions

That should be plenty. Those have the most information of the few pages of threads to choose from.

[gtmy04]

Great you have a GT -

we need pictures -

tells how she handles

I've posted some pictures into the Photo Albums section - Personal 2005 Legacy photo's.

[jk]

how much power do you figure you lose in the automatic transmission? you'll always get more power to the wheels with a manual. i'm planning on switching from a manual wrx and i'm going to be giving up something in acceleration anyway. anyone have an idea how much?

[gtguy]

No, both cars vary torque according to conditions. The default setting for the manual, however, is 50/50. But it does vary.

Kevin

[shelltox]

Have driven a stick all my life until I got stuck with this current auto car. Not fun in REAL driving and I'm hoping the 6MT would be available when they launch the car. So far only news is 5MT. Am very positive that 6MT would be available to stay competitive since most cars comes std with it these days With the 6MT on the STi, I'm sure there's not going to be any exception. This will go head 2 head with the A4 !

[PPower]

OK, thanks Kevin. Don't I feel silly. Even the basic explanation on subaru.com says so. If both transfer torque according to conditions, then what does VTD do that the other system does not?

I was just checking on gear ratios to plug into GT3, and I noticed on Subdriven.com's summary that the manual has a viscous-coupling locking center differential compared to the VTD: Planetary center differential with electronic control.

The best I can summon is that the viscous-coupling works by sending power back and forth just like the the LSD whereas the non-mechanical VTD is transferring power based on electrical sensors. If you have increased power, I am guessing that having a clutch in the transfer case could burn up easier. Maybe this partly where the saying come from that VTD/DCCD can't handle high hp. VTD is set at 45/55 distribution under normal driving whereas the manual's AWD is at 50/50. Distribution obviously changes as needed. I haven't yet found how much power can be sent front or back on the MT, but I read from people's posts last night that the VTD should be able to send up to about 85% to front or rear. All in all, I don't see that the VTD is something to cream yourself over.

[PPower]

OK, so now on to my oh so scientific GT3 runs. What I found out was interesting and strange. On the manual, I found that the 4.110 gets better acceleration than the JDM Spec B's 4.444. ??? Furthermore, the slightly taller gearing of the automatic gives even better acceleration! How is that for flying in the face of convention? I'm sure this doesn't take into account a power loss to the wheels in automatics, and you aren't going to be doing 6000rpm launches in either transmissioned car (I hope :shock: ). Something else interesting was that I "bought" the variable center differential to put it at 45/55, and my 0-400M acceleration runs became slower by about .33 seconds (12.36 vs. 12.69 using 405hp).

At cruising speeds, 4th gear in the automatic at 40mph (common speed limit in town) was a bit under 2000rpm compared to about 2150 in the MT. 65mph in 5th was
mph / 5AT / 5MT
40mph 1800 2200
45mph 2000 2500
55mph 2000 2400
65mph 2500 2750
75mph 2800 3000
85mph 3150 3500

I haven't plugged the gear ratios into my gearing chart to check the accuracy, but this way was more fun. :D

[Stef]

Damn right your getting stick, Tide. :D

[gtguy]

PPower, I don't think that you're too far off. The 3.9 final drive in the WRX has me spinning at about 3,000 rpm at 80 mph. That isn't buzzy at all, and I like being close to boost in 5th gear, so you don't have to downshift in top gear. Don't forget, also, that the new Legacy will have MUCH better NVH than the WRX.

Nice work, man.

Oh, I've forgotten exactly how the AT AWD differs from the manual. What's funny is that some suggest (over at NASIOC) that the AT's AWD system is more "advanced" than the MT. Hell, it needs to be. There's not as much driver input.

Kevin

[team23jordan]

1. Legacy Spec B (5MT)
lap1- 1'15"06
lap2- 1'09"61
lap3- 1'09"71
TOTAL 3'34"37
3. Legacy Spec B (5AT)
lap1- 1'19"55
lap2- 1'12"31
lap3- 1'12"50

thats not that big of a difference at all

[PPower]

From what I have been able to read now, I agree with you Kevin. The ATD is is more advanced than the viscous-coupling, but it needs to be as you said. I feel more comfortable with a mechanical device more than the electronic sensors. If you have a lot of horsepower, those sensors are going to go haywire and not know what to do even if it can handle the power.

The auto seems to be a good one if you need an automatic, but it doesn't make up for a good MT.

[legacy2ner]

Wouldnt the auto have more drivetrain loss?

[PPower]

yes, and the JDM auto is rated at 260hp compared to 276 in the manual. Paul Hansen told me that the Legacy is getting about 260hp showed on the dynos, and I assume that to be the manual because his point is that they are only 276 ON PAPER. The auto could then be more like 250hp as ours are quoted.

[SUBE555]

1. Legacy Spec B (5MT)
lap1- 1'15"06
lap2- 1'09"61
lap3- 1'09"71
TOTAL 3'34"37
3. Legacy Spec B (5AT)
lap1- 1'19"55
lap2- 1'12"31
lap3- 1'12"50

thats not that big of a difference at all

It is when you are racing and every second counts, these are excellent drivers too. The first lap definitely was to warm up the tires.

[PPower]

In watching the video, you can see how the MT blows past the AT car. It is really up in the air as to how much hp differential there really is between the two cars. Definitely a stick for me.

[SUBE555]

I love MT's because you can modulate them so much more!

[EJ20H-TT]

I know in Japan auto's outnumber manuals is the US the same ?

Learning to drive a stick isn't that hard but why do so few try?

[EJ20H-TT]

I also hear that their are some GT running in Japan with a 6 speed box - presume non factory tho.

[gtguy]

I know in Japan auto's outnumber manuals is the US the same ?

Learning to drive a stick isn't that hard but why do so few try?

An automatic is perceived in the USDM as being more advanced. The manual is for cheapskates looking to save $1000 or so off the cost of a new car.

The other thing is that American's aren't really into driving. We're into using our cars to get places, but we don't want to actually have to drive, as in pay attention to the car. Make it nice and quiet with an automatic transmission, so that I can do other stuff while driving, like take phone calls or eat.

People would try if they perceived some value in learning. The manuals will always be for cheapskates and enthusiasts only.

Kevin

[SUBE555]

A lot of the people I've talked to they haven't tried because they either percieve it as too much work (lazy) or think its too hard to try. I learned in a weekend.

[PPower]

Automatics should sell about 80% and maybe even higher. Part of this becomes forced by the dealers as they will order their inventory with automatics to bump up the selling price as well. It's mainly from consumer demand, but dealers do help to perpetuate the trend. BMW sells a greater percentage of manuals than any other sedan manufacturer (leaving out Porsche- majority Tiptronic, Ferrari- majority F1, etc). However, I understand that BMW also has a very high percentage of trade ins for people to change for an automatic.

My guess is that in the US, if you want a manual (especially a Limited), you'd better order it instead of looking for the right one on the dealer's lot.

[SUBE555]

I wish everyone would have to learn manual in drivers education and have to take the test with it. Would make people much more proficient and aware drivers hopefully. The U.S. is so lazy. Then again, look at the weight problem with many people. :roll:

[gurpman]

I guess resale value and reliability are two other factors. When it's time to sell the car I think it'll be harder to find a buyer for a manual. I live in a small town in the southern U.S. so demand for Subies is pretty low to begin with. Good thing I plan to keep the car a long time.

Aren't auto transmissions generally more likely to have problems and more expensive to fix? Then again, with a manual you're looking at eventual clutch replacement right? Or do clutches last a long time these days assuming you're a decent driver?

[Tin_pusher]

I used to always have cars with manual transmissions. Right now I have an auto, and 95% of the time I prefer it. When you spend a lot of time in stop and go traffic the auto is so much more convenient. I like the idea of the auto-shift mode, so you can choose to shift if you desire to.

I've also noticed that some auto transmissions are getting as good or better mileage as the manuals these days. I suppose this is because the computer knows the most efficient shift points in day to day driving.

[PPower]

Part of the reason for equal or better mileage with an automatic is that many times, the gearing is taller than for a manual like in the case of the Legacy. Comparing a 5MT to a 5AT with taller gears, the auto will at least be as efficient. The gearing makes up for drivetrain losses through the auto I imagine.

An auto will be more expensive to repair than a manual usually because it is more complex with more parts to go wrong. However, you won't be making any 5th to 2nd shifts to blow the engine, and you won't be revving it to 5k rpm and dumping the clutch. If you consider the SMG/F1/Cambiacorsa type transmissions, they even rev-match on downshifts. They are much easier on the transmission than virtually anybody can be with a manual. However, I am doubtful that the 5AT will be able to handle the same amount of power as the reinforced 5MT. That's the big thing to me.

[kage]

Preston,
The VTD system has the ability to counteract for slip faster than the VC system on the manual. We're talking tenths of a second difference here, but for some people that's significant. The easy way to state it is that under some conditions, the VTD will react and compensate for slip BEFORE any given tire has slipped. That's impossible with the VC, or any purely mechanical system.

For some people that's "more advanced". To me, it's just interfering with my driving. Traction control, drive by wire, and all these other "smart" systems do exactly what I DON'T want: remove me from the driving experience.

I'm more than happy to feel when slippage occurs and compensate accordingly.

The other major difference between VTD and the VC system is that you can alter the default torque split to be biased more toward the rear (or front). Again, how beneficial this is is debatable.

[PPower]

Thanks Kage. As for altering the default settings, I almost wonder how effective that really is. Once there becomes any slipping, the settings automatically change in the distribution.

[kage]

Yes, but on dry roads, slippage shouldn't be an issue. So the theory is, that on most days, you're driving at the default 35/65, and therefore have less tendency to plow.

[PPower]

US cars are set at 45/55. I wonder why they adjusted it when other countries seem to get the 35/65. You said that you can change the default setting. Is this a DIY mod? I've never heard about it.

[SUBE555]

I'm ont bench racing this one. Lets wait for the mag reviews to see.

[kage]

US cars are set at 45/55. I wonder why they adjusted it when other countries seem to get the 35/65. You said that you can change the default setting. Is this a DIY mod? I've never heard about it.
I meant the manufacturer can set this. I don't think this is DIY friendly, as it involves assembling the center diff with a different gearset/clutchpack, but I'm not too clear on the technical aspect.

[autobahned]

I'll like to go for the stick, but I want to get the VTD too, and the MT has been a quite old design...well, I'll think I'll take the wagon with MT, no leather, no moonroof...just try to make it lighter to compensate wagon's extra 20kg.

[gtguy]

I'll like to go for the stick, but I want to get the VTD too, and the MT has been a quite old design...well, I'll think I'll take the wagon with MT, no leather, no moonroof...just try to make it lighter to compensate wagon's extra 20kg.

You and I both, sir. As a matter of fact, I'll take that rather lovely silver wagon you have under your screen name there. :lol:

Only, my reasons for eschewing leather are that you slide around when getting frisky, and it's harder to take care of, and the big-arsed moonroof (bigger than the JDM version, yes?) just makes me think of a flight of geese with digestive tract problems and me, sitting at a light, unsuspecting... :o

Kevin

[autobahned]

gtguy, I also heard that moonroof will reduce the solidity of the chassis, not to mention such a big moonroof.

And the leather seat not only slippery in turn but also brings serious temp contrast to the rear seat passenger in extream weather(Cold/Hot)

[EJ20H-TT]

gtguy, I also heard that moonroof will reduce the solidity of the chassis, not to mention such a big moonroof.


Sun/moon roof extra - don't do much for me.

I rarely use it - more often than not it lets in to much light on a sunny day.

[Dr. Zevil]

gtguy, I also heard that moonroof will reduce the solidity of the chassis, not to mention such a big moonroof.

And the leather seat not only slippery in turn but also brings serious temp contrast to the rear seat passenger in extream weather(Cold/Hot)


Ah, the age old debate.. There is no way the moonroof will reduce the rigidity of the chassis to any degree which would be felt by the driver. There was so much babble about this with the WRX on NASIOC (I-Club at that time) about this topic. Basically ended up that Subaru just didn't offer one but the Subaru loyalists were saying that there was a reason for not offering it (chassis strength). Same reason why we won't get the Mcintosh, NAV etc... because Subaru just isn't offering it.

[team23jordan]

US cars are set at 45/55. I wonder why they adjusted it when other countries seem to get the 35/65. You said that you can change the default setting. Is this a DIY mod? I've never heard about it.
so it's fulltime 45/55 on dry condition or all condition??
i thought ratio changes in different road conditions

[questmgd]

What makes it harder to decide is that it is a 5-speed. C'mon, it's 2004, the new flagship performance sedan comes with a 5-speed manual?

[Dr. Zevil]

What makes it harder to decide is that it is a 5-speed. C'mon, it's 2004, the new flagship performance sedan comes with a 5-speed manual?

You don't want it to be offered with a manual. Why wouldn't you want the choice to decide.. makes no sense.

[gtguy]

What makes it harder to decide is that it is a 5-speed. C'mon, it's 2004, the new flagship performance sedan comes with a 5-speed manual?

5 speeds vs. 6 speeds has been gone over. With well-chosen ratios, you don't actually need a 6-speed. I imagine the Legacy will have one built, because people seem to be into that whole 6-speed thing. "It's better...it's one more."

Advantages to a 5-speed are that you only need one shift to get to 60 mph, and we have yet to see what effect the larger engine will have on the buzziness factor of the proposed 4.11 final drive. With a 6-speed, you'll have two shifts to 60 mph, but the sixth gear can be verrry tall, for fuel economy.

Of course, that tall final drive also means that you are pretty far from boost (the Legacy is a turbo car, remember) should you need to scoot for some reason. You'd have to grab 5th in that case. Look at the WRX's gearing, for example. You're never far from boost in 5th (3.9 final), yet you aren't buzzy traveling at about 80 mph on the highway. Very nicely-chosen ratios. I expect the Legacy to be even better, and quieter with the attention paid by Subaru to NVH.

People can, will, and continue to justify their demands for a 6-speed. But it's mostly marketing, like Shimano's 10-speed STi road kit. Nobody NEEDS ten rear cogs, but hey, Campagnolo has a 10-speed kit, so...

Driving a manual vs an autobox Legacy GT will make the decision. Expect the manual to be about a second faster, 0-60, than the autobox. Case closed.

Kevin

[Dr. Zevil]

Ah yes.. he was complaining about not having a 6MT.. I was confused :lol: I will admit that having a 6MT would be fun, but I even get sick of shifting my 5MT every now and again. :lol:

[EJ20H-TT]

A F1 driver speaks

This year's rules also state that F1 cars must revert back to use manual gear shift, after almost three years with fully automatic gearboxes. This doesn't worry Barrichello, however, as he says the engines will be able to withstand drivers' errors.

"It's not like you're going to change into the wrong gear," he says. "You might lose some thousandths of a second if you don't change gears [on time], but you won't be breaking the engine in doing so, because there are still some electronic devices that ensure you don't ruin it."

He then adds, tongue in cheek: "I don't care much about manual or automatic shifting, but perhaps I'd prefer driving with automatic gears because it's less dangerous: with 24 buttons on the steering wheel, by also having to change gears you run the risk of never looking at the road ahead!"

[AMT4SWA]

Don't worry Barrichello...Kimi will be smoking you like a cheap cigar this year!!! :wink: 8)

[AMT4SWA]

I have switched over now...I will be buying the new Legacy GT Limited with a 5 spd MT....YEEEEAAAAAHHHHH!!! :D 8) I have decided to buy my wife a "2004" Audi A6 2.7TT Quattro with the 5 spd Tiptronic AT (Dolphin Gray with Ebony leather), and I will then buy the Legacy GT for myself in June or July unless I here about a performance version that would be available by the fall/winter. My wife does not like the looks of the Legacy so far (she loves those darn European cars), and this will actually enable me to buy the Legacy the way I really want...WITH THE 5 SPD MT! :)

[gtguy]

Don't worry Barrichello...Kimi will be smoking you like a cheap cigar this year!!! :wink: 8)

You may be right, but M. Schumacher will have the better of Raikkonen. Valencia testing has been verrry interesting. Coulthard had the lap record in the new McLaren, until M. Schumacher broke it (in the OLD Ferrari), then Montoya broke the record just set by Schumacher. Did I mention that he was driving the old Ferrari? Just checking.

In the old car with the new engine, he is just behind the new Williams, in P2. With all of the performance enhancements for the new car, care to make any predictions? :lol:

Kevin

p.s. sorry for the off-track excursion!

[autobahned]

I have switched over now...I will be buying the new Legacy GT Limited with a 5 spd MT....YEEEEAAAAAHHHHH!!! :D 8) I have decided to buy my wife a "2004" Audi A6 2.7TT Quattro with the 5 spd Tiptronic AT ...

Yeah, way to go, I'll do the similar thing to my wife by buying a 4runner which she's been hoping for and I sometimes use it to do some real off-road tackling; btw, it's a nice comprise on/off road grocery getter. I will sit in my 4th gen Maxima SE till June, and wa la...no body touch my 5 spd silver wagon, no moon roof, leather, wife...

[SteVTEC]

Great discussion!

I've been debating this myself for awhile on future cars. I've found that so long as engines have sufficient low/mid-range torque that autos are more than pleasing enough to drive both from a driveability standpoint and also overall performance. My current '99 Maxima is a manual and honestly I think I'm growing out of it. Automatics are a lot more relaxing to drive. Then consider that the wife-to-be cannot drive a manual, and I think my next car is going to be an automatic.

I had a 2001 Accord V6 and the low/mid-range on that engine was poor, so I really hated automatics after that. But our Toyota Highlander has plenty of low-end and it's just fine (for what it is) with an automatic. I've also driven an 04 Pontiac Grand Prix GT 3.8L N/A (it was a rental) and even that was more than enough for me with its 4T65E automatic.

So considering that a 2.5GT auto should easily be able to pull mid-14's with a little brake torquing which is quicker than my 5spd Maxima, I think I'll be more than pleased with an auto while also having a more relaxed driving experience and I'll be able to share it with the wife. 250 lb-ft @ only 3600rpm implies a smaller/quicker spooling turbo with minimal lag so I would think that the car would be quite strong off the line like the FXT. My Maxima is a high-14/low-15 car in stock form, and I've had it for over 2 years now and still have not felt any desire to modify it for more performance. So I think a 2.5GT/auto would be more than plenty for me.

Steve

[SUBE555]

If you haven't tried the FXT yet and want to see what the new GT should be like, go try the FXT as it should be very similar in many ways. Go try both though. I did. I was actually somewhat supprised with the performance of the FXT Auto. It wasn't quite as potent as the manual, but it was right there when you wanted it.

[BHazel]

Are there any advantages of having the 5MT with aftermarket engine mods?

[f1anatic]

Stick shift bro...ain"t no other way...the control....the acceleration...all of these surely take a hit with an auto tranny.

[firedawgs]

I think this is the 3rd or 4th debate now on the stick and auto. I had a stick with MY04 WRX, now I have the 5EAT for the Legacy. The luxury for auto outways the need to rev it up with the stick. I am loving the sport shifting too. Its is all about what makes YOU happy. :D

[firedawgs]

BTW, that was my 400th post. Now I am a contributor; YEAH for me. :p :woowoo:

[BHazel]

Does anyone know what kind of power the auto can handle?

Or the 5MT for that matter?

[twisted]

i wasnt too happy to get the 5EAT at first but now i'm loving it..i have driven both and i dont think there is too much difference in shift time (provided you time ur shifts in the 5EAT)
now if a 5EAT equipped Legacy has less power than a 5MT from the factory then that is another thing.

[KTM 525]

There is no difference in crank HP but I would think the 5EAT would would have more driveline loss than the 5MT resulting in less HP to the wheels. Just how much i'd like to know.

[jim1969]

There is no difference in crank HP but I would think the 5EAT would would have more driveline loss than the 5MT resulting in less HP to the wheels. Just how much i'd like to know.
We'll see when you get dynoed at Ray's.

[red beast]

a lot of stop'n'go traffic- go auto
out in the country - go manual

btw, they do make racing autos for the wrx


and more btw the 5 speed manual lineage comes from a 78 hp engine mating.
wait for the 6 speed.

[Val]

Manual forever. I think that "sport" (as in sport sedan) and "automatic" just don't go together, no matter how one wants to justify it. A 6 speed would be icing on the cake!

[lisa]

Go with the stick. It is much safer to down-shift in crappy weather than stepping on the brakes, even with AWD. AWD is great but it's not 100% effective Itsbest to slow the engine down manually than with brakes. You also get more power with a stick, especially with a car like the GT.
If you are thinking about an automatic because you or your parent's can't drive one, well, that's a no brainer. LEARN! Once you learn and practice you will never buy another auto. lol.

Lisa

[hadvw]

Go with the stick. It is much safer to down-shift in crappy weather than stepping on the brakes, even with AWD. AWD is great but it's not 100% effective Itsbest to slow the engine down manually than with brakes. You also get more power with a stick, especially with a car like the GT.
If you are thinking about an automatic because you or your parent's can't drive one, well, that's a no brainer. LEARN! Once you learn and practice you will never buy another auto. lol.

Lisa
Can't you downshift the AUTO in manual/sport mode to get engine braking?

Last night, before my wife went to work, we had 966 miles on the car! WOOHOO! Almost past breakin!!

HV

[sde]

yes, you can downshift through every gear in an auto.

i know how to drive manuals, but the daily commute weighed in on my decision. sometimes i get stuck on the fwy, and being on and off the clutch for 1-2 hours while moving 0-10mph completely sucks IMO.

[RoundBoy]

I sometimes hate my decision to go to automatic... I crave the manual..

but other times I really enjoy the auto.. with the sport shift option.

I wish I had a manual for the 'fun' factor, and to really be one with the car.... but I realise i get 95% of it w/ sportshift. I just can't launch or use a clutch...

The auto was a better deal with people complaining of shifiting w/ a cup in the holder... and the (lack of ) armrest. I also think I am someone who would have trouble w/ the subi clutch ..

[JessterCPA]

I am glad I got the auto. After 14 years of driving stick shift, I welcome the change. I have no regrets. Especially during the 2 hour rush hour drive, bumper to bumper.