Legacy STi

[team23jordan]

Legacy STi is ultimate pimpness
M5 killa
rumurs says that
it will have 350 hp to the wheels :shock: :mrgreen:
can't wait

[Tide]

Cool pics. I've been trying to find more but Google and Subaru have been stingy. Can't wait to see what they announce this week.

Sorry I had to remove the ability to link to avatars, as I have no way to control the size. You can upload avatars up to 128 x128, which is pretty big. :D

[sti_owner]

As long as it romps on an M3 and still be under 40k, Im in. Im happy with my STI for now, 350 rwhp would be sweet even in this car. :D

[team23jordan]

another pic of STIs

[SUBE555]

Hate to burst some bubbles, it's only a std GT or MAYBE a Spec B with the S401 BBS wheels, STi Springs, the dual-tip mufflers, and some aestetic work for the most part. Sorry.

[Tide]

Hate to burst some bubbles, it's only a std GT or MAYBE a Spec B with the S401 BBS wheels, STi Springs, the dual-tip mufflers, and some aestetic work for the most part. Sorry.

Yeah, we're all aware that an STi Legacy is a bit of a dream at the moment. We can only hope that with a positive Legacy following perhaps Subaru will offer a better alternative to the BMW M3 and Audi S4. :twisted:

[PPower]

Legacy STi is ultimate pimpness
M5 killa
rumurs says that
it will have 350 hp to the wheels :shock: :mrgreen:
can't wait

You mean that the rumor is 350hp at the crank. :wink:

[team23jordan]

^or that
350 to the wheel is way too crazy

EDIT
any more spec infos?

[team23jordan]

^up

[agctr]

I know Im reaching way way way too far here but is there any news of this car becoming a REAL reality. If Japan and NZ are anything to go by, as soon as the GT STi's hit the World market, they would be snapped up as quick as a fat kid eating the last cupcake!

I know that you could by a lot of the plug and play parts but I think a bulletproof edition from STi would certainly raise the bar!

[panos]

I know Im reaching way way way too far here but is there any news of this car becoming a REAL reality. If Japan and NZ are anything to go by, as soon as the GT STi's hit the World market, they would be snapped up as quick as a fat kid eating the last cupcake!

I know that you could by a lot of the plug and play parts but I think a bulletproof edition from STi would certainly raise the bar!

I've never heard of an STi Legacy making it into production. Its HIGHLY unlikely that it would be 350hp at the wheel (if it makes it into production).

As for the GT STi's being snapped up by NZ and Jap that is very unlikely. Steering wheel is on the right side. :?: :evil:

[SUBE555]

We'll hear about one in Japan first before anything. In any case, 350whp is something beween 400 and 450chp meaning that's WAY high for mfg ratings. I just don't ever see that happening from any Subaru model- ever.

[Dr. Zevil]

^ agreed, They might be working a whole different strategy with thier lineups.

It would be cool to see one though. I don't think you would ever see one in the US though. Spec-b yes, but not an STi version

[agctr]

I think if STi were to bring out a warmed up edition of the GT, Im more than sure it would sell well. Im positive that STi would at least bring out some plug and play parts if it didnt actually support a full running version of the STi.

Panos, Hmm not sure what u mean by the steering wheel being on the right side of the car as Jap/NZ/AUS spec cars are all on the right side, not the left side. Im sure u had your reason for stating that, from here, its all good !

[gtguy]

I think if STi were to bring out a warmed up edition of the GT, Im more than sure it would sell well.

I don't think that it would, if you'll allow me to disagree. People are carping about the cost of the GT Limited as being too high, and assuredly, an STi Legacy would be more expensive than a Limited.

Traditionally, STi upgrades involve braking and handling, with minor power upgrades. Two notable recent exceptions are the WRX STi and the Forester STi in the JDM market. But the STi is $32K, and it is definitely NOT selling all that well. It's tanking, as a matter of fact.

I would figure an STi Legacy to need about a $33-$34 base price tag to be reasonably profitable. I just can't see anyone buying one at that price, particularly considering the STi fondness for manual transmissions, something that would go over like a lead balloon in the USDM, where the bulk of Legacies sold will be with the autobox.

Mind you, I'd love to be wrong. :D

Kevin

[SUBE555]

I concur Kevin, right now there just isn't the brand recognition to get these babies moving enough to make it reasonable for something like that.

[agctr]

Hey Kevin, totally hear what you are saying although in Japan anything that isnt standard, meaning more grunt over the current WRX STi, the Japanese (and the rest of the World = AUS/NZ/UK) are screaming, please sir, more!

For example when the 22B & S401 went on sale, within a matter of weeks, all 400 units of each were sold. Hence this would have paid for Subaru's R&D costs. I'm not sure what the market is like in the US but the UK/AUS/NZ & Jap markets are craving more power over the current STi WRX. I know for a fact that if STi Australia could get there hands on anything else other than the STi WRX, they would grab it in a second.

Here in Oz we are told that the lower fuel grade is the reason why we dont get any STi stove-hot versions as they have to adjust the fuel management system and this is a costly exercise. Im sure it is, but if STi offered a extra cost solution tick box to fix this problem......... well Im sure it would be a ticking frenzy

[SUBE555]

A little bird says you guys will be be seeing more displacement in the near future. ;)

[Tide]

If it were in Japan first, it would be 287 HP. Perhaps with better susp, brakes, wheels, lighter?

[agctr]

A little bird says you guys will be be seeing more displacement in the near future. ;)

Hey Sube, the extra displacement, do u mean for the Oz market? If so, will that happen any time soon and do u have any figures?

[SUBE555]

I just hear of more EJ25 turbos heading to the South Pacific soon. No timetable said though, but it sounded like within the next 2 or so years. Just don't have any specifics.

[agctr]

Thanks, also if I hear anything from the VERY tight lipped STi folk down here, I shall certainly let you know.

Again, thanks for the heads up ! :D

[ha-evolution]

Traditionally, STi upgrades involve braking and handling, with minor power upgrades. Two notable recent exceptions are the WRX STi and the Forester STi in the JDM market. But the STi is $32K, and it is definitely NOT selling all that well. It's tanking, as a matter of fact.


I'm just curious as to where you got this information from? I haven't seen any confirmation of this anywhere but I have seen lots of rumors both ways.

I for one would be willing to make the jump to an Legacy STi. Depending on how much HP that came along with it I would be willing to pay low to mid 30s for it.

[gtguy]

Traditionally, STi upgrades involve braking and handling, with minor power upgrades. Two notable recent exceptions are the WRX STi and the Forester STi in the JDM market. But the STi is $32K, and it is definitely NOT selling all that well. It's tanking, as a matter of fact.


I'm just curious as to where you got this information from? I haven't seen any confirmation of this anywhere but I have seen lots of rumors both ways.

I for one would be willing to make the jump to an Legacy STi. Depending on how much HP that came along with it I would be willing to pay low to mid 30s for it.

The braking and handling stuff is just what STi usually do, hence the "traditionally." The WRX STi price is a known factor (though MSRP, not real world).

STi, for it to actually be into making its own, massively-powered models such as people are speculating about with some 350-hp Legacy STi, would have to be similar to BMW's M division, or the AMG side of Mercedes. That kind of stuff runs a lot of dosh, and just isn't cost effective for a manufacturer the size of Subaru/STi.

Kevin

[ha-evolution]

Whoops - should have clarified that I was talking about the poor sales comment you made.

[Sub-attraction]

I think if STi were to bring out a warmed up edition of the GT, Im more than sure it would sell well.

I don't think that it would, if you'll allow me to disagree. People are carping about the cost of the GT Limited as being too high, and assuredly, an STi Legacy would be more expensive than a Limited.

Traditionally, STi upgrades involve braking and handling, with minor power upgrades. Two notable recent exceptions are the WRX STi and the Forester STi in the JDM market. But the STi is $32K, and it is definitely NOT selling all that well. It's tanking, as a matter of fact.

I would figure an STi Legacy to need about a $33-$34 base price tag to be reasonably profitable. I just can't see anyone buying one at that price, particularly considering the STi fondness for manual transmissions, something that would go over like a lead balloon in the USDM, where the bulk of Legacies sold will be with the autobox.

Mind you, I'd love to be wrong. :D

Kevin

I think you are right about the mass USDM market not ready to snap up a full blown STI Legacy. There are a few enthusiasts and those in the know who would relish such a vehicle and overlook the cost. Maybe a better marketing approach for SOA would be to offer STI packages available on the GT which could allow the buyer to pick and choose, building the car up to match their purse strings. Some may only be interested in the appearance and not care about performance mods (gasp!), so an STI appearance package including wheels, lip spoiler, WRB etc could be chosen. Those interested in performance over looks could opt for a STi performance package including increased HP, brakes, suspension bits, etc. Everyone has different Needs and Desires, give them the options to make it come true.

[ha-evolution]

I'm down with you. STi packages work for me.
But it's gotta be more than a short throw shifter and a different shift knob :lol:

[coolbluelb]

Maybe a better marketing approach for SOA would be to offer STI packages available on the GT which could allow the buyer to pick and choose, building the car up to match their purse strings.

This plan sounds similar to what Dodge has done with their SRT division (formerly PVO), most specifically for the SRT-4. Aftermarket parts can be ordered directly from Dodge and/or installed by dealers. Staged kits for the engine are also available (Stage I and Stage II are available, Stage III will preposedly have 300/300 to the wheels).

A similar strategy by Subaru would certainly be welcomed by US purchasers, and would certainly be a way to direct only those added performance items to individuals interested in purchasing them.

[SUBE555]

I discussed that a while back, but I'm definitely game for it as well. I'd rather have factory parts if possible.

I think the Legacy GT in itself will be rather good and minor tweaks would probably just make it astoundingly great beyond the likely fantanstic. Something on the side of Brakes, Suspension I & II, a single slight Power stage (perhaps something like the Prodrive packages, but something that ACTUALLY performs how it's supposed to), those being additional to the the current 'STi Package'.

Give it a little time, voice your opinions directly to Subaru, and I think they will listen.

I personally don't think a full STi version is necessary, but I could be wrong. I doubt it would debut at anything less than $35k though unfortuantely out of the range of most, even if it is still a screaming bargain in comparison to the M3 and S4.

[coolbluelb]

All indications are that the USDM Legacy will be an awesome performance value. Not to be changing the subject, but do we have a schedule of when they will be touring the states (prior to arrival at the dealerships)? I would not mind driving to Tampa to see the Leg in person.

[SUBE555]

Hmm, my sister is going to Phili early next month. Maybe I should go along and take a stop across the river. ;)

[agctr]

I think everyone on the 3rd page has some fantastic and very valid points. The GT is a fantastic car but to go out and splash out on non genuine parts could seriously damage the re-sale of the vehicle. This is where the current STi versions of the WRX retain better value over the standard WRX.

If the S401 is anything to go by, the re-sale on that vehicle would be a lot higher than the B4 for instance. To quote Sube, to have a powerup package from Prodrive backed by STi would be a fantastic idea, giving not only the owner peace of mind but giving yr GT STi enhanced vehicle more street cred !

P.S If we are wanting Subaru to hear our voices, where could we send our emails to ?

[apexjapan]

Here is what I would do, personally, from within Subaru/STi to create an affordable Legacy STi for America.

Re-tune the GT 2.5 for a more aggressive high-rpm profile and about 270hp, either by extending the 250ft/lbs higher in the rpm range, and/or raising torque to 260-270ft/lbs. Give it a bit better breathing exhaust system with more of a presence than the stock.

Ship with 17 or 18-inch wheels that have 225 series RE-01 level rubber. Something close to the grip of the 070s but without the trade-offs in wet traction. The higher performance 050s in a wider section would be fantastic.

Use the lower STi springs with the B-spec dampers. Off the shelf parts keeps costs low, and these two would provide a great ride/performance tradeoff, one that scores higher on the comfort scale than the current USDM STi, but still is sporty enough to hang with STi/Evo's.

Put in the JDM or USDM STi seats with a lower seat rail that maintains the current lowest height of the JDM standard seat, or perhaps a bit lower.

Use solid pillowball stabilizer links in the rear in conjunction with the stabilizer bars from the current Spec B.

Parts-bin in the 6-speed from the Forester STi in Japan with it's longer gearing, and the front/rear Brembo brakes.

And add in the rear pillow-ball linkage from STi.

With all of that added on top of a base GT price, I think Subaru could produce a Legacy STi that would give a USDM STi owner the shakes in the corners and straights, and keep the price under $34K MSRP.

I know everybody wants to hear some big hp numbers, but if it was released at those levels, it would have enough power to overpower 225 series sticky rubber if is below the level of 070's. It would be quick enough to compete with all of the fast sedans below the 60-70k level, and would be reliable even on American gas. It may even be able to keep at adequete gas mileage numbers as well.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen

[gtguy]

Whoops - should have clarified that I was talking about the poor sales comment you made.

I don't have any hard and fast evidence, but you can get an STi for near invoice right now, and dealers have plenty of them sitting on their lots. Those two things wouldn't be happening if the car was doing as well as Subaru had hoped. I will admit to possibly being wrong, but if the car was doing well, you wouldn't see dealin' days on STis.

Kevin

[ha-evolution]

That's all I've heard is anecdotal evidence but I haven't seen any hard number for STi or Evo sales. I don't want to speculate either way but you could be right.

[ha-evolution]

With all of that added on top of a base GT price, I think Subaru could produce a Legacy STi that would give a USDM STi owner the shakes in the corners and straights, and keep the price under $34K MSRP.

I would definately be in line for one.

[coolbluelb]

With all of that added on top of a base GT price, I think Subaru could produce a Legacy STi that would give a USDM STi owner the shakes in the corners and straights, and keep the price under $34K MSRP.

I would definately be in line for one.

I agree an STi Legacy in the $34k range would be a wonderful automobile; but valid points have been made that demand for such a car would be extremely limited in the US at present.

I have seen newspaper ads for both Evos and STi's for $500.00 or so over invoice. To me, this is proof that the buying American public has failed to put their money where the Auto Magazine Industry's mouth is...

It irks me even more when I think that cars like the new GTO will actually sell... :evil:

[apexjapan]

That's because the STi and Evo both compromise day to day driving far too much for the general public without having the looks to back up the weekend driving needs. And the fact that they look so extroverted, but not sexy, does not help either.

An STi-ized Legacy has the potential to far outdo both of their combined sales if they keep the day to day comfort reasonable while providing enough performance to keep enthusiasts happy. And it's appearance is both classy and low-key enough that the addition of some sportier rubber and subtle spoilers won't give the game away to the cops or the wife.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen

[SUBE555]

That's because they made the GTO plush and it has a V8. Now that's a little simplified, but I don't see it too far off the mark. A lot of Americans like displacement (whatever the sacrifice) and they like to be coddled. I don't think the EVO and STi hit those marks as well because a lot of people just don't understand them or they don't meet many people's criteria. I will note that I have heard countless times how the wing along was a dealbreaker!

There's a lot of image dealings going on.

[coolbluelb]

I will admit that the car I owned in college was a 5.0 Mustang. While very quick in a straight line, it did not come close to my VTEC Prelude (the car that replaced it) in the "fun to drive" category.

While I purchased the Honda to be a more economical car, I quickly learned that there was much more to enjoying a driving experience than going fast in a straight line.

I feel that, as the F & F generation matures and makes a bit more cash, we will see even more market for cars like the STi and Evo.

All reviews that I have seen on the Legacy point to it being an even more complete package than any of the other cars I have owned (plus it is big enough to carry around my family). I can not wait to see/drive one myself. :!:

[Tide]

I think we all have some good points here, so how about some marketing 101 by Chad:

:D :D

The Impreza STi is not about selling a high margin car and making bucks. Its about selling RS's and WRX's. Most of those who want the STi can't afford it, and thus buy the same line.

Just as the WRC car is built to sell STi's, thus the line progresses.

The question then is would a Legacy STi push more GT's out the door? The Legacy is already Subaru's #1 seller, and the new one will push that threshold even more. I think one on par with an M3 would. Think of all the car articles that would praise this cheaper, faster, everyman's M3. How much would that inspire sales of the GT? A lot I think.

Just IMHO.

[PPower]

Here is what I would do, personally, from within Subaru/STi to create an affordable Legacy STi for America.

Re-tune the GT 2.5 for a more aggressive high-rpm profile and about 270hp, either by extending the 250ft/lbs higher in the rpm range, and/or raising torque to 260-270ft/lbs. Give it a bit better breathing exhaust system with more of a presence than the stock.

Ship with 17 or 18-inch wheels that have 225 series RE-01 level rubber. Something close to the grip of the 070s but without the trade-offs in wet traction. The higher performance 050s in a wider section would be fantastic.

Use the lower STi springs with the B-spec dampers. Off the shelf parts keeps costs low, and these two would provide a great ride/performance tradeoff, one that scores higher on the comfort scale than the current USDM STi, but still is sporty enough to hang with STi/Evo's.

Put in the JDM or USDM STi seats with a lower seat rail that maintains the current lowest height of the JDM standard seat, or perhaps a bit lower.

Use solid pillowball stabilizer links in the rear in conjunction with the stabilizer bars from the current Spec B.

Parts-bin in the 6-speed from the Forester STi in Japan with it's longer gearing, and the front/rear Brembo brakes.

And add in the rear pillow-ball linkage from STi.

With all of that added on top of a base GT price, I think Subaru could produce a Legacy STi that would give a USDM STi owner the shakes in the corners and straights, and keep the price under $34K MSRP.

I know everybody wants to hear some big hp numbers, but if it was released at those levels, it would have enough power to overpower 225 series sticky rubber if is below the level of 070's. It would be quick enough to compete with all of the fast sedans below the 60-70k level, and would be reliable even on American gas. It may even be able to keep at adequete gas mileage numbers as well.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen

All excellent, but why not just use the US STi engine? There would be no additional R&D needed to get it right, and the increased volume reduces cost. Also, for the US market, a 50hp increase may be deemed worth the extra expense whereas 20-30hp can be compensated by simple mods. For seats, what about US width seats with thicker, adjustable side bolsters like the M3 or old Prelude? That would be great for me. Heck, that should be standard on the GT.

[agctr]

Just curious, why does JPN build all the fantastic STi editions for their own JPDM but not onsell to other countries????. Im not sure if anyone can answer this.

Why would FHI have to build an STi just for the USDM ? Why wouldnt Fuji they just build an STi Legacy/Liberty for all countries like they do with the current WRX. Surely there doesnt have to be different mods and updates for each specific country over and above the safety, emission and legal aspects as required by law. This where R&D gets totally out of control.

Having one base STi GT model makes more sense to me as it drives down R&D and drives up Bang For Your Buck. For mine, lets argue about what they should have or shouldnt have done once the STi GT hits the showroom floors.

[agctr]

What......... no STi Legacy information yet ?

[kage]

Japanese buyers are notoriously finicky. Manufacturer's have to go to extraordinary lengths to capture Japanese buyers. Keep in mind that in Japan a car is more a toy than a necessity for many people. The competition is fiercer.

I think Subaru will likely create a Legacy STi. As you said, it makes a lot of sense. Now that Subaru is beginning to cultivate a performance/premium image in the US, it makes perfect sense to create a halo model for the Legacy. Now the only question is: will it be a no compromises performance stripper like the Impreza STi, or will it be a premium luxo GT more along the lines of a BMW M3 or Audi S4?

[ha-evolution]

Found this over at NASIOC:


So far between January and April 2004 they've sold a little over 2000 nationally. Total since introduction last year is close to 6000, minus about 40 cars. If you do the math they've definitely sold more than 360 per month. I believe there's only about 1100 of the '04s left. Anybody who tells you the car wasn't a sales success and is sitting on lots is probably a Mitsubishi salesman.
That's as definite as I can get without giving exact figures.

Those numbers I posted above are from actually sales and production charts.

Doesn't sound like the STi's are selling too poorly to me.


http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=553369

[SUBE555]

Since the weather is heating back up, I think they'll start rolling again.

There's one left at Gustmans over here, but Dave told me the Doc from Bancroft is looking for one of the same option set (inc. color and wheels.) I'll see if I can clear that one out.

Haven't seen any '05 matieral at the local dealer just yet, but already saw an '05 STi in the Crystal Grey/Silver, there's a bunch of nice little interior upgrades for one that really make it nice, like the placement of the DCCD, cup holders, and heck, even a stereo is nice.

Yeah, the one in Dave's STi and the Defi gauges are nice too. Troy. ;)

[ha-evolution]

They already had an 05 crystal gray STi at Chilsons and it was sold it on Friday. I didn't get a chance to see it up close but I liked the color from afar.

[SUBE555]

Like this one.. Dorao on Nabisco picked it up friday, Lizarded it Saturday. Now that's a way to break a car in. :cool:

http://blue-sun.net/Lizard_2004/Lizard_2004-Images/6.jpg

[racerdave]

Some car clubs might be moaning about it raining when they get together (S2000, BMW, etc...), but to me it looks like you guys had perfect Subaru weather.

:D

[ha-evolution]

Like this one.. Dorao on Nabisco picked it up friday, Lizarded it Saturday. Now that's a way to break a car in. :cool:

http://blue-sun.net/Lizard_2004/Lizard_2004-Images/6.jpg

Isn't that a Chilson sticker on that baby? It looks so much different in the sun.

[SUBE555]

Chilson's sticker indeed. He's from the Milwaukee area.

The weather started out rather rainy, by the time we left the Wendys it stopped raining, and within 2hrs or so roads were pretty dry. After dinner in Madison going home though it was raining so bad we almost pulled off.

For more details I'll post them in the Lizard thread in MW. That way we keep this slight OnT.

At least we're half OnT, STi, we're just missing the leg talk now. :lol:

[ha-evolution]

Mmmmmm......Legacy STi - twould make me forget dreams of the S2K.

[SUBE555]

Yeah, me and Dave were talking with Eric Hutchins I think who had the S2000 before his EVO and he said it was far less drivable than the EVO or most other cars he's had. He would have brought the EVO except he didn't get back from Reno from more Porsche training til like 2pm. He met the group about 10 miles outside Madison and treked in with us.

Dangit, you got me breaking my own word! I think I 0WN3D myself. :lol:

[PPower]

Man, I wish they would have that crystal grey for the Legacy. :(

[SUBE555]

They might have a new color next year, who knows. *shrug*

I think I have been watching too many TopGear clips tonight including those of the M3, STi's and all the other hot toys, makes me want an STi Leg. :D I think I have gear lust. :lol:

BTW, the group drive review is up in the Midwest setion for those who want to take a look. Some pics and others will come as well. :)

[3.75L H6]

EJ257, Brembo's, susp/chassis upgrade as a "performance pack" would get the job done. :D likely hood anyone?

[agctr]

News Just IN!

Each year Tasmania, Australia holds one of the World's Best Tarmac rally's called the Targa Tasmania. For the past few years the Targa has been won by a driver by called of Jim Richards or commonly referred to by Australian race lovers as Gentle Jim.

For the past few years Jim has piloted either a GT3 or more recently a GT2. On the last day of the Targa, Jim led the field by 0.32 seconds. A relative unknown piloting a MY04 WRX STi Enhanced, was some 40 seconds adrift of Jim. To cut a long story short, the WRX STi Enhanced beat the entire field by a whopping 1.02 mins to take out the 2004 Targa Tasmania.

A fantastic win for Subaru and a massive win for the all conquering MY04 WRX STi.......

[agctr]

:o News Just IN! :o

Each year Tasmania, Australia holds one of the World's Best Tarmac rally's called the Targa Tasmania. For the past few years the Targa has been won by a driver by called of Jim Richards or commonly referred to by Australian race lovers as Gentle Jim.

For the past few years Jim has piloted either a GT3 or more recently a GT2. On the last day of the Targa, Jim led the field by 0.32 seconds. A relative unknown piloting a MY04 WRX STi Enhanced, was some 40 seconds adrift of Jim. To cut a long story short, the WRX STi Enhanced beat the entire field by a whopping 1.02 mins to take out the 2004 Targa Tasmania.

A fantastic win for Subaru and a massive win for the all conquering MY04 WRX STi.......

[racerdave]

It even whooped a Skyline, huh? Wow!

[goneskiian]

I thought the '04 STi had the new front end? What's with the bugeyes?

-Ian

[Dr. Zevil]

I thought the '04 STi had the new front end? What's with the bugeyes?

-Ian

Perhaps you didn't get the memo... BUGEYES RULE!

[goneskiian]

It's not that I don't like the bugeyes, it's just that I thought they were gone on the '04 models.

I agree, bugeyes rule!

-Ian

[Dr. Zevil]

I don't know why, but I really like the bugeyes, especially with the round projector lamps. Very very good looking car. Too bad I am going to sell it for a new one... OH WELL. The GT is a looker too ;) and faster :D

[SUBE555]

Looks like an S202 to me.

[agctr]

Yup the REX sliced and diced the entire field which was fantastic. GT2 was unable to gain traction in any gear over 150Kmh and this is where the scooby came into its own. My apologies also, its not an MY04 its a MY02/03.

No the car is not a S202, its a stock WRX modified by STi Australia. Hope you all enjoyed the pics!

[username]

mms://wmt-od.stream.ne.jp/impresstv/sb/sbapt040518pb_101.asf

[ha-evolution]

Nice trunku spoila!

[Th3Franz]

I wish I knew what he was saying. Oh well at least it looked cool. The carbon fiber engine cover was interesting.

[akm3]

I would kill for a World Rally Blue Legacy GT...

Sigh

-Allen

[Th3Franz]

I would kill for a World Rally Blue Legacy GT...

Sigh

-Allen
Or a graphite one. :D

[Dr. Zevil]

OMG! Nice graphite engine cover! Pointless but sexy!

[SUBE555]

No the car is not a S202, its a stock WRX modified by STi Australia. Hope you all enjoyed the pics!

Not according to the MRT site...
http://www.ecutek.com.au/news-040503.htm

[agctr]

Thats really strange because all the paper write ups are saying it was a stock WRX with STi heat. Now if u look at the car, the air scoop looks stock, the sideskirts look stock too, on another picture in a motor mag here, u can see the pink struts, this colour is not stock any STi that I know of.......then again it looks like its running mega STi brembo brakes, hmm doesnt really matter I suppose, we just kicked German Ass and thats the main thing.

[agctr]

Thanks for the link, that was really great. Didnt see too much of the inside of the car but the seats that you could just see look fantastic and Im sure they would give a lot of support.

Couldnt hear much of the engine as well, not that he really gave it to it but Im sure it would have plenty of poke. Still not too keen on those rims, i think shadow chrome would look a lot better, but the blue, well that just looks amazing, even when wet!

[waflowers]

An STi-ized Legacy has the potential to far outdo both of their combined sales if they keep the day to day comfort reasonable while providing enough performance to keep enthusiasts happy. And it's appearance is both classy and low-key enough that the addition of some sportier rubber and subtle spoilers won't give the game away to the cops or the wife.
Agree 100%. This is why I chose not to buy a WRX STi. Paul, what you've described perfectly matches my hopes/dreams for the rumored "Big Boy".

I don't want 6-cyl cranking out 350bhp; give me 270-280, excellent sport handling, sticky rubber (although I can always supply that myself), awesome braking, true sport seating, etc. and I'll have an ear-to-ear grin whether commuting or on the autocross course.

P.S. I know I'm responding to rather old messages, but I've been gone for a while.

[agctr]

I too have looked at the STi WRX but wanted something a little less main stream as in other Scoobies on the road. The STi WRX for me is a bit in yr face where the STi GT is styled a lot better and is a lot less racey looking, but has a lot more BFYB and thats what Im looking for.

[agctr]

Any info on if Scooby are going to bring out WRC blue on any of the legacy/liberties ?

[Drift Monkey]

Perhaps you didn't get the memo... BUGEYES RULE!

[B4_Maniac]

I would pay 33-34k for a TRUE STI Legacy w/o thinking twice about it. I like my GT, but it is not a true B4 and I would rather buy a real STI Leg and not have to build it myself anyday.

[MacG5]

Some interesting news on this site. Hope the link works.
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/roadtests/0306scc_legacy

Huh? I say, Pardon? :?:

[waflowers]

MacG5, you need to fix the link.

[waflowers]

Also look at who wrote the article!?!?!?

Available here in 2005? Is this the "Big Boy" I've spoken of (that was rumored to me)?

It may be too little, too late for me though. :(

[Tide]

Im actually worried specb and nav will be options next year. Given 3-4k for each option, that would make a Legacy for around 37k!

[Mines]

Sbec-B better come as an option like the Mini cooper works package or there will be many angry GT owners.... like me

[waflowers]

Sbec-B better come as an option like the Mini cooper works package or there will be many angry GT owners.... like me
Seriously, why would you be angry?

There is always something better coming. You can choose anytime to buy or wait forever (as I seem to have done) for the next, great car. Or you can buy earlier and enjoy what you have. You are enjoying it, aren't you?

And if it does show uo on these shores I can always say: "I told you so!" :lol:

--
Bill

[B4_Maniac]

And me also!!!

[agctr]

The Big Boy may be something fantastic, but I fear its like the Big Bang theory, its going to happen again but why, hmm who knows........

Waflowers, if you have any info, would love to hear it. Thanks

[MtnSub]

Outback has the “LL Bean”, Legacy could have the Sti or GT/Ltd NIKE edition with all the extra goodies. If existing Leg GT meets sales targets and Subaru wanted to gen up-market image and price point, the car below could be built from Subaru”s parts bins today.

For those of us that are going to buy Leg GT in the next couple months, I hope dealers can offer us Subaru engineered upgrade kits for suspension etc., next year.

If/When Subaru intros Sti Leg GT, my wish list looks like:
 I hope they do not tart it up and make minimal exterior changes. No WRX rally look.
 No wings or racer rocker panels, maybe unique color offerings.
 Consider slightly enlarged, black out, no logo grill, with small Sti badge in lower grill corner. Keep scoop same.
 Lighter, 7.5-8 wheels with 225/17/45 “great” all weather tires and colored brake rotor grabbers.
 Slightly more power, 275-280 ft lb., 5MT ok, not sure I need 6MT.
 Short shifter , slightly stiffer suspension, NOT lowered. A car for real roads and driveways.
 Even better sport seats, manual lumbar is fine.
 Improved front armrest and rear(wagon) armrest std.
 A few subtle Sti interior logos in blue or gray and Sti door sills. (ala M3)
 Upgraded sound system.
 Add auto up/down windows all around. Found in lesser cars.
 Add roof console buttons for garage door openers. Found in lesser cars.
Subtle, but quite unique, all the up-market expected amenities and more performance than cars twice the cost. Not asking for anything that is production costly. Let Subaru enjoy some extra $ margin.

At $34-35K USD, the car would have a limited mkt from Subaru customer base, but BMW 3xi customers and Audi A4S fans would flock to Subaru, IMO. If delivered in a subtle, but mkt buzz worthy package, a Sti Legacy could have a much broader mkt, with deeper pockets, than the press darling, but low sales WRX Sti. A BMW 325xi wagon, with leather, but no sport package, less of everything inside, out and under hood, with 16 inch paws, is $36.5K.USD. You would need to spend above $45K to get anything close from other companies.

[gtguy]

Outback has the “LL Bean”, Legacy could have the Sti or GT/Ltd NIKE edition with all the extra goodies. If existing Leg GT meets sales targets and Subaru wanted to gen up-market image and price point, the car below could be built from Subaru”s parts bins today.

For those of us that are going to buy Leg GT in the next couple months, I hope dealers can offer us Subaru engineered upgrade kits for suspension etc., next year.

If/When Subaru intros Sti Leg GT, my wish list looks like:
 I hope they do not tart it up and make minimal exterior changes. No WRX rally look.
 No wings or racer rocker panels, maybe unique color offerings.
 Consider slightly enlarged, black out, no logo grill, with small Sti badge in lower grill corner. Keep scoop same.
 Lighter, 7.5-8 wheels with 225/17/45 “great” all weather tires and colored brake rotor grabbers.
 Slightly more power, 275-280 ft lb., 5MT ok, not sure I need 6MT.
 Short shifter , slightly stiffer suspension, NOT lowered. A car for real roads and driveways.
 Even better sport seats, manual lumbar is fine.
 Improved front armrest and rear(wagon) armrest std.
 A few subtle Sti interior logos in blue or gray and Sti door sills. (ala M3)
 Upgraded sound system.
 Add auto up/down windows all around. Found in lesser cars.
 Add roof console buttons for garage door openers. Found in lesser cars.
Subtle, but quite unique, all the up-market expected amenities and more performance than cars twice the cost. Not asking for anything that is production costly. Let Subaru enjoy some extra $ margin.

At $34-35K USD, the car would have a limited mkt from Subaru customer base, but BMW 3xi customers and Audi A4S fans would flock to Subaru, IMO. If delivered in a subtle, but mkt buzz worthy package, a Sti Legacy could have a much broader mkt, with deeper pockets, than the press darling, but low sales WRX Sti. A BMW 325xi wagon, with leather, but no sport package, less of everything inside, out and under hood, with 16 inch paws, is $36.5K.USD. You would need to spend above $45K to get anything close from other companies.

Welcome to rationality, and one of the rare STi Legacy posts I have read. This is probably very close to what form the car (if it is in fact not vaporware) will take, I rather imagine, all easily accomplished with existing bits from the FHI parts bin.

Kevin

[B4_Maniac]

I would also add a stiffer suspension and thicker sway bars too. Actuly they should not wait for the STI verision for that. The GT needs these desperatetly.

[Drift Monkey]

I would also add a stiffer suspension and thicker sway bars too. Actuly they should not wait for the STI verision for that. The GT needs these desperatetly.
Desperately? Perhaps you'd like to expand on this for us...

[B4_Maniac]

Yeah DM. The Subaru parts rep for my region and I were discussing this at length when I got the car. Plus, with recent experiences in the GT the current springs are NOT set up for performance driveing. The performance potential of this car is being stiffled by the tires and the lack of a stiffer springs and larger anit-roll bars. I have never driven a car with this much power with such a complient suspension set up. It realy forces you to back down off of turns and keep your fun on straight line. I would even say the stock STI springs should have been the LEAST they put in this car. But, they wanted to tune it for the middle market and keep the ride soft on the highway. I disagree. Some one that realy does not know how to handle themselves in a sticky situation will find them selves in a bad way if they over power a turn in this car with the stock set up. The engine demands stiffer bits and stickier tires. PERIOD.

[gtguy]

Remember, please, that stiffer doesn't automatically equal better. Part of the attention paid to weight reduction was precisely so that the car could not be so stiffly sprung, and yet still handle well. Reports at the Subaru ride and drive were glowing, particularly about the handling and steering response, and those people were on a track, at speeds north of 100 mph. I would think that if the GT desperately needed stiffer suspension and thicker strut bars, those people (from auto-x and track whores to an experienced rally driver) would have noticed, and commented upon it.

Subarus have always demanded smoothness, and it appears that the new GT is no exception. I think that perceptions of the car will be all over the map. When the WRX came out, some people were saying that it understeered and was too soft. Others were saying it was a great handler, and very neutral.

It all depends upon your driving style.

Kevin

[Dr. Zevil]

I am really interested to hear what you think about the suspension setup on the GT once you drive it Kevin. I too have not driven it, but it will be interesting to hear your thoughts.

[B4_Maniac]

Remember, please, that stiffer doesn't automatically equal better. Part of the attention paid to weight reduction was precisely so that the car could not be so stiffly sprung, and yet still handle well. Reports at the Subaru ride and drive were glowing, particularly about the handling and steering response, and those people were on a track, at speeds north of 100 mph. I would think that if the GT desperately needed stiffer suspension and thicker strut bars, those people (from auto-x and track whores to an experienced rally driver) would have noticed, and commented upon it.

Subarus have always demanded smoothness, and it appears that the new GT is no exception. I think that perceptions of the car will be all over the map. When the WRX came out, some people were saying that it understeered and was too soft. Others were saying it was a great handler, and very neutral.

It all depends upon your driving style.

Kevin

I disagree. I belive the actual suspension in the car is great. Double wishbone up front and anti-squat multilink in the back is an awsome combination. Its the springs and the tires that I belive are the bits that need attention.

But, I think the STI's springs would have done this car justice in provideing the perfect ballance between performance stiffness and comfort. Not as raw and viseral as the EVO 8's but fine for a dailey comuter/driver. I think the springs would have translated well to the Legacy and provided the performance it DESERVES.

I have no gripes with the stearing or the actual suspension design/geometry. But, I do like my curves and I don't like backing down from a highway off ramp. Wich this current spring/tires set up will force you to do.

It demands tweeking. The RX8 and the WRX STI both have perfromance springs that do not sacrifce comfort or perfromance driveing.

[WRXTom]

I have commented on this before and after 2300 kms on the GT wagon I have gone back and forth on the suspension tuning. The install of the Rotas / Kuhmo MXs that I had sitting in my garage certainly helped cornering grip but I'm with B4_Maniac on this one. Granted, my benchmark is quite high given that I had the STi suspension added to my previous WRX wagon. B4_Maniac, if you add good rubber you won't need to back off nearly as much in the turns...trust me.

For a family wagon, the GT performs very well. The power output, brakes, steering, transmission are all very good to excellent. After doing some fairly aggressive driving in the twisties (ones that I am intimately familiar with the stock WRX wagon and STi's wagon) it would appear that the suspension is too soft...by how much I haven't decided yet since I want to retain some civility in the ride quality. The level of compliance allows the car to be absorb bumps and irregularities very well while maintaining a sporty ride quality but, for me, it is too far to the comfort side of neutral. Even in city driving, bumps will cause the car to pitch and roll somewhat, not much but noticeable, and during highway driving the degree to which the suspension compresses when on larger swells surprised me.

I would be shocked if the USDM suspension tuning is the same as the one that Paul (ApexJapan) raves about. He mentioned in a post that he thought the spring rates were different.

Tom

[MtnSub]

Note to B4-Maniac, I did list “slightly stiffer suspension” in my list, but did not make my very long post longer by specifying springs and sway bars. I also listed wider (225), more aggressive tires that would help handling/braking and create more road feel, some would say make suspension feel more stiff.

I was probably off on my mentioned price point of $34k to $35k USD. Given current price of Leg GT/Ltd, with 5MT at $29,600 and AMT at $31,400, and given the list of parts from existing parts bin required to produce Sti Leg, I think Subaru could increase profit margin on a Sti model and still offer cars at $32,200K MT and $33,400 AMT. Mkt for such a car is broader with AMT Sportshift option. Anything close to this price point is a market beater. The Leg GT as outlined in my previous post would offer an experience much closer to a fully loaded M3 or S4, at a price point below a base 325xi BMW, without leather. Audi, BMW & Volvo-T5 customers will be massing at Subaru dealers.

Regarding discussion over “stiffer suspension”, even with more drive time experience there will likely be personal expectation differences on feel and handling. I think an Sti model could have slightly stiffer suspension and the standard GT models could stay with existing suspension set-up, with a factory engineered upgrade package of springs and sway bars offered. This allows those that want the compromise/benefits or just like the edgey feel of a really stiff suspension can have it on a great car that costs $26K USD for base GT.

Personal opinion on any factory suspension upgrades, I would NOT want to see Leg GT LOWERED. Boxer engine placement and car cg is well designed and any lower will make car front overhang scrape on bumps and driveways. Keep car for real streets and daily driving. Leave lowering for track guys to do after-market.

[WRXTom]

I think an Sti model could have slightly stiffer suspension and the standard GT models could stay with existing suspension set-up

Agreed. This would make marketing sense. The demands of the marketpplace and my personal requirements don't always line up...unfortunately :) . Subaru needs to sell cars and stiff suspensions in family cars are likely a tough sell here. A factory upgrade path for the GT would be an option I would support.

By the way, I would purchase the STi version you describe...in wagon format of course.

Tom

[Drift Monkey]

Personal opinion on any factory suspension upgrades, I would NOT want to see Leg GT LOWERED. Boxer engine placement and car cg is well designed and any lower will make car front overhang scrape on bumps and driveways. Keep car for real streets and daily driving. Leave lowering for track guys to do after-market.
I'm lowering mine just in spite. Well not really, but I do plan on lowering my car, as are many (potential) Legacy owners. Maybe you meant you didn't want to see them SLAMMED. I won't be doing that. :lol:

[waflowers]

When the WRX came out, some people were saying that it understeered and was too soft.
The WRX does understeer and it is too soft. Fortunately both are easily fixable with lots of choices and sources for readily available parts.

[orpie_lightfoot]

I have driven hundreds of legacys (both GT and non) at high speeds through a parking lot, which is not nearly so even as a highway or test track. At about 90 mph, it does get scary(it's a BIG lot) but name any car that would'nt be scary under these conditions. These cars handle great, and unless a person really doesn't know what they're doing, control should not be a problem.

[WRXTom]

The issue is not one of a lack of control but one of degree of control. The standard set by the STi setup was quite high and my ideal setup gets me as close to that standard without adding too much NVH. For me, the Legacy could be brought closer to that standard. I'm sure the opinion of others will vary.

And 90 mph is not scary in the GT...unless, of course, you are in a parking lot. :)

Tom

[7stars]

B4 according to various sites, the Leg has struts up front and multilink/wishbones in the rear.

[gtguy]

When the WRX came out, some people were saying that it understeered and was too soft.
The WRX does understeer and it is too soft. Fortunately both are easily fixable with lots of choices and sources for readily available parts.

The WRX understeers and is too soft "for you" would be the necessary addition to that statement. It clarifies that it is personal assessment, as opposed to a blanket statement referencing the car's inadequacy.

I still think the problem is that people feel body roll, and think that the car isn't handling well. The same was true of the WRX. Wheels/tires and a swaybar (for the wagon, just wheels/tires for the sedan) would get you very far toward handling excellence. Don't forget the test (I think it was Motor Trend) who ran a WRX with wheels/tires and a WRX with wheels/tires and the SPT suspension kit at the track, and the SPT'ed WRX wasn't all that much faster over a lap than the stock suspended WRX.

Stiff cars suck to drive on a daily basis, and they don't sell to the general (read: non-enthusiast) public. That's a fact of life. It's fine if you know what you're getting into, but if you go to your Subaru dealer looking for a family sedan and hop into the Legacy, only to have your kidneys rearranged, you aren't going to buy that car. And Subaru will not make its sales nut by catering to enthusiasts. No offense intended to anyone, but we are a collective pain in the backside for automakers. :lol:

The RE92s are a known deficiency of the Subaru line. Until I have a chance to flog one I will reserve judgment, but guys thought I was weird because with my driving style, my WRX wagon didn't understeer. Everybody who rode with me would ask what I did, and I would say "Nothing. Why?" That's why I say that driving style has a lot to do with how a car behaves, and assessments thereof, without laying any "good" or "bad" qualifiers on that evaluative quality.

A friend of mine is aggressive, pitching the car deep into a corner and trying to muscle it around the turn. He said my car plowed like a road grader. My style is smooth inputs, always feeling what the car is doing, never doing anything to upset it. I said my stock car didn't understeer.

Now, I certainly enjoy my STi suspension mods. But I got to drive a friend's '03 WRX wagon, and my first thought was "Boy, this car is nice!"

The thing I want to clarify is that the GT doesn't necessarily need a stiffer suspension. Certain drivers, however, might need one for their ultimate satisfaction, which is a fairer statement.

Kevin

[Val]

I also listed wider (225), more aggressive tires that would help handling/braking ..
If you want to keep correct speedometer readings, a Plus Zero tire upgrade should be either 245/40-17 or 235/40-17 on 17 x 8.5 wheels. Is there enough fender space for those?

[Legacy_Fan]

Yeah DM. The Subaru parts rep for my region and I were discussing this at length when I got the car. Plus, with recent experiences in the GT the current springs are NOT set up for performance driveing. The performance potential of this car is being stiffled by the tires and the lack of a stiffer springs and larger anit-roll bars. I have never driven a car with this much power with such a complient suspension set up. It realy forces you to back down off of turns and keep your fun on straight line. I would even say the stock STI springs should have been the LEAST they put in this car. But, they wanted to tune it for the middle market and keep the ride soft on the highway. I disagree. Some one that realy does not know how to handle themselves in a sticky situation will find them selves in a bad way if they over power a turn in this car with the stock set up. The engine demands stiffer bits and stickier tires. PERIOD.

I have to totally agree with your assessment. When I test drove a GT and took it hard into a freeway onramp loop that would normally be fine with other cars, the car started a fairly smooth 4 wheel slide, and I had to back off to keep it on the road. I would almost say that the current setup is dangerous. We may be seeing accidents caused by too much power and not enough cornering ability with the current factory setup. These 2 need to go hand in hand. Personally, I feel you can have better handling without compromising ride comfort. Interestingly enough, right after I test drove the Legacy GT, I drove the Mazda 3 and was able to take that same curve at a much higher speed.

I have GT Limited 5sp on order and don't appreciate having to dump more money on tires and suspension parts.

[MtnSub]

I find it hard to compare a Mazda 3 and Leg GT. Maybe they are in similar price range and you are saying that Subaru could have done a better job of dialing in suspension, if Mazada 3 team did it.

I don’t like the idea of changing tires & suspension, but I was not impressed with my BMW 328 without added sport suspension and upgrade to 17/225/45 X8s on it.

I have read a great deal about driving technique and car dynamics, but never taken a performance driving class or raced. I have driven in Europe with a pro driver and know that I do not have pro driving skills. Unless I was not paying attention (driver error) I cannot imagine taking a ramp turn so fast that I lost the car because the cars power fooled me into toruble. People do dumb stuff in Porsche’s every day and it is not the cars fault.

This back and forth about suspension being to soft or just right with better paws reinforces my view that a factory engineered suspension upgrade kit is the best solution for Subaru and its more sporting customers. Unless Subaru builds a ltd edition Leg Sti, a small but important group of customers will always be unhappy with general market suspension set-up. Even if Subaru builds a stiffer Leg Sti, many base Leg GT drivers will want a suspension kit for their lighter, non-sunfroof challenged, low cost GT screamer. I am sure that Subaru or some quality after-market guys will end the need for this discussion by the time we get our GTs and settle in.

[dskelto]

I gotta ask how fast are you guys taking your Legacies into these on ramps?

[Legacy_Fan]

I find it hard to compare a Mazda 3 and Leg GT. Maybe they are in similar price range and you are saying that Subaru could have done a better job of dialing in suspension, if Mazada 3 team did it.


I have read a great deal about driving technique and car dynamics, but never taken a performance driving class or raced. I have driven in Europe with a pro driver and know that I do not have pro driving skills. Unless I was not paying attention (driver error) I cannot imagine taking a ramp turn so fast that I lost the car because the cars power fooled me into toruble. People do dumb stuff in Porsche’s every day and it is not the cars fault.



I don't think the Mazda 3 is really that comparable either, but it got a .87 on the skidpad with car and driver. I don't think the legacy gt will get near that with the stock setup. The Mazda 3 was fun to drive even though it was a little smaller in the back.

Also, there was no safety issue with that onramp and i was going about 40. It's not that difficult for an experienced driver to see what a car can do.

[dskelto]

Regarding driving dynamics: I've noticed that in tight turns and curves the Legacy will initially exhibit a bit of roll and understeer, but that is usually easily correctable by applying a bit more throttle. The AWD does its thing and send more power to the rear wheels and then the car tucks in nicely.
Of course I am in no way advocating unsafe driving on public roads.

[MtnSub]

I was not suggesting that anyone was driving in an unsafe manner or unable to control their car. I was responding to the comment made by Leg-Fan that given the cars power, it could be dangerous for the average Joe/Jane driver in a arc corner, because of soft suspension.

Many people on this site have technical driving skills. I am a knowledgeable driver with sport car experience, but would not consider pushing a car into four wheel drift. My point was that the car would need to have a major design flaw to say it was “dangerous” for average drivers. Average drivers get into problems by over driving Civics and they get into trouble in Porsches. Neither Civics or Porsches have major cornering design flaws and driver error is the issue.

Hope I did not offend. Does anyone really think the Leg GT suspension is unsafe for the mid-market Leg GT customer? I still think the solution to this line of discussion will be sport suspension upgrade for those of us that want the toy. Maybe I will go to school and enjoy the satisfaction of a controlled drift. I have enjoyed the “off and stab throttle” technique in a corner with great satisfaction and surprise at how well it worked.

[gtguy]

I was not suggesting that anyone was driving in an unsafe manner or unable to control their car. I was responding to the comment made by Leg-Fan that given the cars power, it could be dangerous for the average Joe/Jane driver in a arc corner, because of soft suspension.

Many people on this site have technical driving skills. I am a knowledgeable driver with sport car experience, but would not consider pushing a car into four wheel drift. My point was that the car would need to have a major design flaw to say it was “dangerous” for average drivers. Average drivers get into problems by over driving Civics and they get into trouble in Porsches. Neither Civics or Porsches have major cornering design flaws and driver error is the issue.

Hope I did not offend. Does anyone really think the Leg GT suspension is unsafe for the mid-market Leg GT customer? I still think the solution to this line of discussion will be sport suspension upgrade for those of us that want the toy. Maybe I will go to school and enjoy the satisfaction of a controlled drift. I have enjoyed the “off and stab throttle” technique in a corner with great satisfaction and surprise at how well it worked.

Exactly, and what I suspect is that for many mid-market drivers, the GT is going to be too firm. I sent a colleague to test-drive a Forester, as she was looking for a mini-ute, and she didn't like how you could "feel every bump in the road" with the Forester. That is the kind of person who is often shopping for cars. Subaru is taking a chance with the suspension tuned as firmly as it is.

I imagine that, as with the WRX, there will be some "aftermarket" offerings for the Legacy, unless the people who have pooh-poohed the WRX offerings as "I can get cheaper in the aftermarket" have ruined Subaru's belief that such items will sell.

Based on what I have read, I can't see any average driver getting into trouble with the GT. As people on this board have said, the car handles better than I can drive. I'm about to go and find out.

Kevin

[B4_Maniac]

I agree with Legacy fan.

I also felt that the Leagcy was not safe on a hard turn mainly due to the tires. The springs come in when I take tight turns and I am trying to keep the car flat.

I have to say, I do not baby my cars. I like to know what I am driving and what its limits are. But, with the Legacy the engine definatly out performs its stock springs and tires.

[WRXTom]

I would be in for a factory sport suspension. My assumption is that there will be an STi spring option as some point. We'll see.

The discussion on the GT suspension will carry more weight when more actual owners of the car can comment. Test drives are usually too restricted to be very useful unless you are lucky enough to get the opportunity for an extended drive over familiar terrain.

Tom...2500 kms and counting.

[B4_Maniac]

I would be in for a factory sport suspension. My assumption is that there will be an STi spring option as some point. We'll see.

The discussion on the GT suspension will carry more weight when more actual owners of the car can comment.

Tom...2500 kms and counting.

I agree..my parts rep said he will make a point with SOA to request this.

Hey! :x I am a owner! 500 plus miles on my GT 5/MT!! :D

[WRXTom]

No worries B4...I knew that :lol:

Also, I certainly don't consider the GT to be unsafe. Some time spent learning the dynamics of the car will keep you out of trouble.

Tom

[Legacy_Fan]

No worries B4...I knew that :lol:

Also, I certainly don't consider the GT to be unsafe. Some time spent learning the dynamics of the car will keep you out of trouble.

Tom

Unsafe might be a strong word, but when you are advertising your vehicle as "faster then Porche, BMW, or Audi", then you better make sure it corners like them. The enthusiasts that are going to be buying them will be expecting this and could get in trouble if the do not corner as expected. I would like are car that errors on the side of safety (corners better that expected-like a Mazda RX8) so when that emergency maneuver happens, even the average driver comes through safely. You shouldn't need to learn the car to keep out of trouble. Sounds like they had the car set up right in Japan(Car of the Year) so i'm just a little disappointed we couldn't get the same suspension setup.

Sorry, just my opinion.

[WRXTom]

I would like are car that errors on the side of safety (corners better that expected-like a Mazda RX8) so when that emergency maneuver happens, even the average driver comes through safely. You shouldn't need to learn the car to keep out of trouble.

Didn't mean to offend. I'm with you that superb handling is just as important to the average driver, even though they might not know it until they need it, as it is for those have paid for Skip Barber and autoX on the weekends.

My comment was more directed to my experience that the excellent low end torque of the GT can take you by surprise and overpower the stock rubber under certain circumstances. Once you learn the limits of the car (tires actually) then you can avoid getting into trouble. But, my preference is for higher limits.

Tom

[7stars]

A 4 wheel skid is called neutral handling. That's the safest kind of skid for the average driver. We've said over and over on this site that the RE92's suck. There's your problem. It's not the suspension. A dangerous suspension is one where you do not feel a good connection to the road, and the car doesn't behave how you assume it would based on tire feedback. Try driving an '04 Accord. It's very nervous going around a corner, requiring constant correction of the steering wheel. The Camry has a soft and floaty suspension, but through a corner, it tracks very accurately.

[gtguy]

I just returned from a meet-and-greet at my favorite Subaru dealer and I can unequivocally say that except for the tires, I won't be changing a thing on my GT. That car is fabulous, and I can't believe how well it handles.

On the same car, I ran Tein HAs with 450/375 spring rates, and DMS Golds with 180/180 spring rates (after fooling with 225/180). The lower spring rate had more body roll, but handled a LOT better. The same is true of the GT. There is some body roll when you pitch the car hard into a corner, but that is, truth to tell, not my driving style. When I turn in, gradually feeding throttle and steering out of the corner, nothing but a nice, carved line.

I was even blown away by the handling of a base Outback. Man, am I pleased with this car. Obviously, this is my opinion, and that of others my vary.

Kevin

[MtnSub]

Leg Fan and B4 make some good points about "average" drivers need max safety as much or more than tech trained drivers. With Subaru setting expectations by using Porsche & BMW comparos, joe average could over drive what everyone seems to say are terrible tires for a performance sedan/wagon with 250 torque. Terrible tires are a problem on any car, but as B4/Leg Fan point out, problem is exagerated in a very powerful, smooth car.

I couldn't agree more that there are many more hours of fun to be had with great handling than with in-line speed and raw power. This has become more of a handling board than Leg GT/Sti discussion, but I think the message is clear that advanced handling performance is critical to "reason for being" for any future Sti Leg.

I will be replacing stock wheels and tires first week and wait to see how I feel about suspension upgrade, but it sounds like majority of enthusiasts want a stiffer suspension. I am sure upgrade kits are on horizon.

[Opie]

New member here and didn't want to read all 9 pages but this is what I have "heard" about the "Legacy STi":

Late 2005 as a 2006 model, Twin-Turbo H6 producing 350HP, upgraded suspension, STi specific wheels, tires, front and rear bumpers and rear spoiler. Priced low to mid 40's

That being said I have not seen any literature to prove this, it is only the information I have been told. For reference, I manage the www.SubaruChallenge.com website for Subaru.

[waflowers]

Hey Opie, glad you finally decided to drop in here.

Opie is also a SouthEast forum moderator on NASIOC and a mighty nice guy.

Opie, you need to read my thread in "Other Cars" where I talk about tentative plans to replace my Legacy GT with a non-Subaru.

[gtguy]

Low to mid-40s...yow! That's about what I expected for what would be a Q-ship. Spendy, though I think some more marketing work will be necessary before the world is ready for a $40K Scooby.

Kevin

[Drift Monkey]

:o 40k? I would have a hard time rationalizing that one! :lol:

[SubaruDeac]

Low $40s would make choosing between a Legacy STi and an S4 a difficult proposition.

[7stars]

twin turbo H6? It'd be too front heavy.

[Opie]

twin turbo H6? It'd be too front heavy.

Not at all, the current H6 is just a few pounds heavier than the 2.5, 7 - 10 lbs IIRC.

As far as the Low to mid 40's price point, the same source aslo told me two years ago that the new Legacy (The '05's we just got) would be on the low to mid 30's, so take taht as you will. A fully optioned GT is in that range, but it's not the starting point.

[7stars]

It actually weighs 100lbs more. I think you're thinking of the size, which is 8-10" over the 4cyl.

[WRXTom]

Opie...sedan and wagon versions?

Tom

[MtnSub]

IMO, a Twin Turbo, H6 350 HP Leg GT/Sti in the mid $40s, only makes sense if Subaru wants to set a future stake in the big bucks, label prestige mkt segment. Especially in sedan form, the choices in the low to mid $40s are great and the fat part of that market demand sophistication, spa like dealers and lots of snoby stuff that is the antithesis of Subaru. In the $40k range, Subaru would not only be competing with name power of Benz, BMW, Lexus, but they would lose to Infinity G35/45 prospects and other mid-$30 car makers. I am not clever enough to understand Subaru in the $40k+ market. The new Leg/Outbacks have transformed Subaru from trustworthy, ugly duckling status to a stylish performance choice, with “AWD function” and “value” still winning the day.

I think a Leg GT/Sti, built from existing part bins in the $34K range would deliver better margin and mkt share for Subaru and more fun-per-buck than a mega price/power Suby. A $33-$34.5 k LegGT/Sti could rob customers from its current range of competitors and from BMW-Benz-Lexus-Volvo. Personally, I would not be interested in 350 HP, H6 for $40k+.

If we ever came to a consensus on one or two points regarding a LegGT/Sti, is SOA listening? Does this site have enough critical mass to be of mktg interest to SOA? I bet the business plan and manuf/build plan work for ?Leg GT/Sti? is already done and we are just placing bets on the outcome. Maybe SOA could be influenced on a few minor options and the importance of a suspension upgrade kit supported by dealer for current Leg GT missionaries.

[gtguy]

IMO, a Twin Turbo, H6 350 HP Leg GT/Sti in the mid $40s, only makes sense if Subaru wants to set a future stake in the big bucks, label prestige mkt segment. Especially in sedan form, the choices in the low to mid $40s are great and the fat part of that market demand sophistication, spa like dealers and lots of snoby stuff that is the antithesis of Subaru. In the $40k range, Subaru would not only be competing with name power of Benz, BMW, Lexus, but they would lose to Infinity G35/45 prospects and other mid-$30 car makers. I am not clever enough to understand Subaru in the $40k+ market. The new Leg/Outbacks have transformed Subaru from trustworthy, ugly duckling status to a stylish performance choice, with “AWD function” and “value” still winning the day.

I think a Leg GT/Sti, built from existing part bins in the $34K range would deliver better margin and mkt share for Subaru and more fun-per-buck than a mega price/power Suby. A $33-$34.5 k LegGT/Sti could rob customers from its current range of competitors and from BMW-Benz-Lexus-Volvo. Personally, I would not be interested in 350 HP, H6 for $40k+.

If we ever came to a consensus on one or two points regarding a LegGT/Sti, is SOA listening? Does this site have enough critical mass to be of mktg interest to SOA? I bet the business plan and manuf/build plan work for ?Leg GT/Sti? is already done and we are just placing bets on the outcome. Maybe SOA could be influenced on a few minor options and the importance of a suspension upgrade kit supported by dealer for current Leg GT missionaries.

Pursuant to a couple of your points, Subaru is planning to revamp its dealer structure to exclusive Subaru offerings, rather that being teamed with someone. This is with a gradual eye toward creating the kind of dealership experience that will support a more premium branding.

And no, this site doesn't, and never will have enough marketing clout for SOA to pay any attention to it. No offense to anyone, but sites such as this one are a pain in the butt for manufacturers, because many facets of their existence are based on the presumption that the car isn't good enough, not a problem with the average person, who buys a car, drives it, takes it to the dealer for service, and doesn't howl because the latest model doesn't come with racing seats, or a track-ready suspension, etc, etc. Such sites also rarely provide useful information. People say that the Legacy GT has a suspension that is too soft, so undersprung as to be dangerous. Not true, but it's a matter of perception. Those same people want to see higher (more uncomfortable) spring rates, and stiffer strut valving, which means that nobody would buy the car. Boarders would always find something lacking, and wait for (the tri-turbo Legacy with 400hp), and the people who are actually willing to spend that kind of dosh for a car, would hop in that stiffly sprung Legacy STi, hit the first bump and u-turn back to the dealership.

It would seem that part of the grand design for Subaru is a gradual upscaling, with value always a prominent part of the equation. If the uber-Legacy comes with all the goodies (HID, nav, etc, etc.) and costs around $40K, but can whomp any sedan on the road, it still offers high value, even at the price point.

But the leather has to get nicer, every aspect of the car has to get nicer. I suspect that the time frame is a bit optimistic. Subaru has some marketing work to do before the world is ready for that kind of car.

Kevin

[racerdave]

Taking a brand upmarket is a tricky proposition, hence the existance of Lexus, Infiniti and Acura instead of premium placings at Toyota, Nissan and Honda.

I agree with most of what Mt. Sub said about pricing and targeting for an STI Legacy. Taking the Legacy too far upmarket too quick is stupid (re: VW Phaeton).

And I also agree with Kev about SoA and this site..

[waflowers]

Those same people want to see higher (more uncomfortable) spring rates, and stiffer strut valving, which means that nobody would buy the car.
I don't want to see the car come standard with these sorts of things; I want them to be an options for those that want them and have them covered under warrenty.

It would be suicide for Subaru if all they delivered was a hard core car. But IMHO they are leaving some money on the table by not making it an option.

--
Bill

[gtguy]

Those same people want to see higher (more uncomfortable) spring rates, and stiffer strut valving, which means that nobody would buy the car.
I don't want to see the car come standard with these sorts of things; I want them to be an options for those that want them and have them covered under warrenty.

It would be suicide for Subaru if all they delivered was a hard core car. But IMHO they are leaving some money on the table by not making it an option.

--
Bill

I think you're right, Bill. But rumor has it that there will be SPT bits for the Legacy, same as there were for the WRX. Problem is that people rarely opt for the manufacturers option, scoffing at it for price or some other reason. The SPT suspension kit, for example, for the WRX sedan, was well thought-out, and included struts, springs, aluminum control arms and firmer suspension bushings for the rear of the car, for a real market price of about $1200.

People said "What, you can get coilovers for that price," and they went sitting on shelves. Many bought the setup, but many more didn't. And speaking as someone who is driving on that setup, it is excellent, durable, maintenance-free and bulletproof. It's a bargain, and I only wish the wagon's kit came with the AL control arms, instead of just the stiffer control arm bushings.

This market, meaning the Subaru enthusiast crowd, needs to understand that you have to support something to make it grow. It's true of tuners as well as aftermarket parts. That SPT stuff was first-rate. I have tracked, autocrossed and rallycrossed my struts/springs to a fare-thee-well, and they work perfectly. That says a lot. But if Subaru doesn't sell the stuff, they're going to think that nobody wants it, and not offer it in the future.

It was great that there was a manufacturer-offered aftermarket for the WRX, and I was happy to support it. I didn't get the STi pink bits from Subaru, only because they didn't offer them. If Subaru offers a part, it's generally well thought-out and tested, and yes, the price reflects that reality.

This board is for the most part a very mature and reasoned space. I only hope that when (and if) the Legacy parts go on offer from Subaru, that people will support that market as best they can. Obviously, the parts have to be good, but if the WRX parts are any indication, they will be first-rate. And as I always say, 18-way adjustable coilovers offer someone 18 chances to screw up the ride and handling of their car. :lol:

Kevin

[SC GT]

IMO, a true Legacy STi would be built in Japan, not the US, which would potentially blow the price out of the water.

[racerdave]

Amen to the 18 ways to screw up the handling.

Dual-Adjustable shocks have to be about the most misunderstood parts in the market. Shock tuning is as much art as it is science, and the amount of misinformation and misunderstanding out there as to how/why to tune them is staggering.

And the aftermarket mfgs are laughing all the way to the bank.

[7stars]

I would rather see a stripped down Legacy with STi performance package for $30k, with production limited to 1500. I don't believe anyone would buy a $40k Subaru within the next 2 years.

[MtnSub]

7 Stars, if we see a Leg GT/STI, I think it will most likely fill the "LL Bean" positon for Legacy and be a fully loaded, max weight, top of line offering. The only way they could limit 1,500 units to $30K would be if demand was very low. From enthusiatas point of view, a stripped down, light weight Leg GT/Sti would be the best offering. There may be genius in your thought because selling out and performing with legend would be clever marketing promo for Subaru.

Wonder where this board goes from here. We have all made our suggestions and placed our bets. I guess we may get benefit of some insider on our board letting us know what they see in pipeline. I am going to buy regardless, read Opie drive impressions on AB Leg at home and follow gtguy comments. My short test drive was very positive. This site will be very helpful for tire, wheel and maybe future suspension upgrade info.

[MacG5]

Very interesting discussion. I think that a 350Hp, H6 turbo setup in a 6 sp Man Tranny car at $42,500 USD is great value. Over here an S4 costs $72,000 plus Canadian dollars. A "GT Sti" with the aforementioned setup would have more HP than the S4 and you would get better value for your money. Hell at $57,000 I'd start saving now and buy one in three years. But like a lot of you have said, who's going to pay that much $$$ for a Subaru?

The subaru die hards and a few newbies like myself are aware of the great value of these cars, but the masses are going to run to Audi, BMW and Mercs just because they are percieved as better cars. People don't think about how much it will actually cost to fix one of the Uber-German marques after the warranty runs out. And for 20 years those German cars have dominated the luxury segment.

I've read all of the arguments, and if I could offer one bit of advice to Subaru, it would be to stay away from that segment of the market for a few years. Continue to build great Gts an create a solid base of 25-35 year old GT lovers/owners and in 5 years when we all have more disposable income, offer something that would be a real winner. Because even though I would become a miser to afford a 350 Hp H6 Sti, I'm one in ten thousand, and right now it's just not worth it for the company.

Cheers, Mac.

[MtnSub]

For a little perspective on what a $40k USD Leg GT would compete against in today’s market, see the Volvo site for the V70R wagon or S60R sedan. Don’t dismiss their AWD as mostly FW. Not only is the level of interior sophistication/quality for this Volvo flagship model in a very different league than Subaru, but check the mechanicals. Before outlining the critical points, let me say that as impressive as all the gee-whiz tech is on the Volvo, the engineering simplicity, functionality and maintainability of the Subaru is very admirable and beautiful design. The Volvo is so tech/computer assisted that I might worry that “Hal” would take over the spacecraft.

I will test drive a V70R in two weeks.

Here are the specs, but you must see the level of interior sophistication/luxury.
 Shorter, wider track, lower and longer wheel base than Leg GT.
 295 ft/lb at 1950-5600 rpm with 0-60 in 5.4 sec. using 6MT. Turbo, 2.5 engine.
 Brimbo 4 piston 13 inch vented brakes all around with 60-0 in 118 ft. Volvo is 300lb. Heavier.
 17x8 wheels with 235/17/45 P Zero tires.
 Driver selectable active suspension settings (comfort, sport, race).
 DSTC that allow bypass, partial assist or full assist.
 AWD that adjusts front, back and side for aggressive cornering, but is 90% FW under non-stress.
 Sport steering with 2.5 turns to lock
 Bi-Xenon headlamps with projector beam fog lamps.
 Front seats are fantastic.

Enough about how tough competition gets at $40k from a competitor with a reputation for building safe cars that last a long time. Much of the Volvo is excess, but that market segment wants that. The current Leg GT/Ltd with after-market tires comes very close to offering just as much performance for $8k-$10k less and a lot less gadgetry to worry about and eventually fix.

[agctr]

There are a lot of great arguments for and against building a GT STi. I think all the models before in Liberty/Legacy and WRX that have been limited runs have been snapped up very quickly. Limited runs can be great for the collector and the boyracer types (cashed up of course). I myself would go for the GT STi as its something different from the run of the mill. All the worldwide car builds bring out a few special models, obvioulsy we just have to wait our turn, again !

[7stars]

The thing is, the WRX and EVO were race cars. The Legacy is not known for its performance on a world circuit, so it would be very tough to market it as an ultra high performance car. Remember the SVX? The GS300 offered more for roughly the same price. I don't think Subaru can directly compete with the next generation GS.

I think they should concentrate on making the Legacy a little better every year, and perhaps offering the full blown STi engine at a small premium, say $1500 extra over the GT. It would be cheap to produce and I think it would sell. I am already surprised at how many WRX owners there are who don't even care that much about performance. And I'm extremely surprised by the amount of people that have been getting GT's instead of the 2.5i, like somebody's mother on here. The WRX STi's harsh suspension really turns away a lot of would be buyers...the ones that want the absolute best, but best does not necessarily mean a stiff ride. These normal everyday people would buy a 300hp Legacy. They just can't call it an STi. Maybe GT-S? :)

[agctr]

Fantastic points I have to admit, the SVX showed a lot of promise and are still seen a lot on our roads here in Oz although the parts can be very expensive.

There are a lot of 2.5 on the roads here already although the GT is gaining in popularity minus the badging, no GT badging here in Oz.

The STi version of the GT would certainly add more depth to the range of STi. I dont think I would like to be an STi salesperson, I think it would be very boring talking about the same car all the time. I went there on Thursday and the guy said there was nothing he could tell me extra about the car as I knew it all. I found that comment a little strange but agreed with him lol........

Still think that ppl would buy a 300Hp Scooby regardless if it was called an STi or not.

[racerdave]

 Bi-Xenon headlamps with projector beam fog lamps.
 Front seats are fantastic.

Enough about how tough competition gets at $40k from a competitor with a reputation for building safe cars that last a long time. Much of the Volvo is excess, but that market segment wants that. The current Leg GT/Ltd with after-market tires comes very close to offering just as much performance for $8k-$10k less and a lot less gadgetry to worry about and eventually fix.

The Xenons are reflector type.

I see the Leg GT as a more involving driver's car with a 10k discount and without the technogadgetry over the V70R.

I drove a S60R, and while it was fast and did indeed have great seats (even my wife's V70 has very good seats), I didn't think the R offered much feedback or feel, and that doomed it for me. I actually preferred the 325i to it, even though far slower in a straight line, because it was a much more complete-feeling driver's car... to me.

I didn't like the R's steering feel -- or complete absence of it.

It's a very nice car.

But I think the Legacy GT is going to be just as capable and more involving, without the excess luxury and techno-gadget suspension (which I'm rather wary of in terms of long-term ownership).

So that's why I'm going to buy the Leg GT instead of the V70R. That says a lot for the Subie because I can get Ford X-plan pricing the Volvo, which knocks about 3.5K off the price. But I just don't think it's worth the extra $$.

[MtnSub]

Hey RacerDave, I have not driven the V70R yet, but you stated my view of the Leg GT vs V70R perfectly. I can buy eiter car and straight line power is not a factor, both cars are faster than an BMW 325ix, which I enjoyed owning.

My comments about the V70R were meant to show what a $40k+ Leg GT would be competing against. I think the Leg GT can be best of class in the low to mid $30k range, with a broader market. I think Subaru can win new customers, like me, from BMW, VolvoR, Benz, etc with a modest upgrade of the new Leg GT. Unless I am really impressed by driving the 05 V70R with improved steering and 4C software, I will be buying a Leg GT/Ltd and changing tires/wheels day after purchase. The Leg GT looks and feels smaller (a good thing) than the boxy Volvo R, but the specs show just the opposite.

[agctr]

Boys Boys Boys Boys, BOYS
Do u really want your neighbours, friends, fellow workers and other drivers shouting out "Bloody Volvo Driver?" Get back onboard guys, gish!

[Drift Monkey]

Boys Boys Boys Boys, BOYS
Do u really want your neighbours, friends, fellow workers and other drivers shouting out "Bloody Volvo Driver?" Get back onboard guys, gish!
Is this any better than "Bloody Subaru Driver?" :lol:

[MtnSub]

As I have stated in previous posts, I am not brand centric, I am driving experience driven and not impressed with excess for the purpose of presteige.

Regarding Volvo V70R, just found out it has a 43 ft. turning radius and that single fact is enough to take it off my list. Subaru is about 35 ft. turning radius. This spec detail impacts sport driving and everyday parking lot experience and can be a safety hazard. The Volvo's extra 400 lbs of weight is a concern, even though it has more power and even bigger brakes than the Subaru. The BMW 325xi wagon is the only option and it is a little too small and I must special order to get MT with xi wagon, wihich means car will be Bangled by the time it is built.

The more I look and drive, the better I feel about the Leg GT.

[IwannaSportSedan]

The Legacy STi should be a separate model, and be called just that, not Legacy GT STi.

I would add to the current roster for '06:

Legacy GT 3.0R, $32k, most things standard, few remaining options.
in addition to the regular GT and GT limited. 3.0R would be a near-luxo grand tourer, and be pretty much identical mechanical spec to GT limited, except engine, but with Standard NAV, homelink, auto windows and moonroof, etc. (optional on other Legacies) and an ebony or grey burl wood trim, shift knob and wheel (like 3.0R outback, but grey on charcoal, cherry on taupe interiors) and more decorative wheels and trim. Kind of like an L.L.Bean edition for the Legacy. Wagon could even be called L.L. Bean

Legacy STi and STi Un-Limited: $33k-$37k: stripped out or optioned up.
Sedan or Wagon body styles, with Outback's fender flares, but no side cladding. STi Model only available in fewer and unique colors, Obsidian Black (non-metallic), Silver, Crystal Grey, WR Blue, or San Remo Red (non-metallic).
3.0 H6 with twin turbos. 300-350Hp. 290+ lb-ft. 6spd Manual or 5EAT. Helical gear torque-sensing center and rear differentials. More on performance below.

A standard agressive body kit, called "STi Appearance Package." It would include an agressive front air dam, side skirts, rear bumper and diffuser, a small lip-style spoiler on trunk and above rear window. Silver painted headlight housings, (or black, and all others get silver). smoked reverse light in tail lights. Gold or polished silver 18" wheels, similar to WRX STi, but more of a "road wheel" than rally-equipment looking. See Legacy WR thread for pics of something like this already in existence.

The Appearance package would be available for extra $ on the GT model Legacies, minus the rear diffuser bumper, and front air-dam, both unique for use with the fender flares on the STi car, and retaining a visual difference between the GT with Appearance pkg, and an actual STi branded Legacy, with the performance upgrades.
The appearance package for the GT would substitute a small splitter under the GT front bumper, (already shown on a JDM car elsewhere on this forum) and rear spats to complement the side skirts. the spoilers, and wheels would also remain. Interior logo bits like STi door sills, short shift kit, and pedals would also be included. A non-Limited 2.5 GT with appearance pkg. would still be significantly cheaper than a Legacy STi Un-Limited, and still less than standard Legacy STi.

Meat and Potatoes - the STi Performance Pkg: In addition to being standard equipment on the STi branded car, the perf. pkg. would also be available on the GT models, for similar reasons to the Appearance pkg. the perf pkg. would include:
Bilstein Shocks/struts, STi springs, hollow core anti-roll bars. lightened/strengthened control arms, and harder bushings. Set up for higher lateral grip, but limiting harshness, like Mazda does with RX8. Not rock hard like WRX STi.
Upgraded, larger, gas-slotted rotors, STi/Brembo calipers and pads. Stainless braided lines. (hyd clutch, too.) Would also include STi 18" wheels on GTs that don't already have the appearance pkg. Optional "summer" tires, for those in warm climates, or who know they will be using separate winter wheels and tires.

The interior:
Red, Blue, or Silver alcantara upholstery accents on charcoal cloth or leather interior (straight charcoal also available), color coded perf. leather momo steering wheel, shift knob, and brake handle with seat material color. Colors only on STi branded car, not available in packages. STi Pedals, short shifter, of course.

The STi Un-Limited would have the leather/alcantara interior options, with either a DEFI BF 3 gauge cluster in place of the cubby, or optional NAV system with digital gauge display on the LCD when not in map mode. home-link, power heated seats, indicator mirrors, and on and on... like GT Limited.

(The Defi BF gauges look nearly identical to the stock Legacy dash gauges, even with the startup sweep! I wonder if there is a link between them... They are in the STi japanese catalog, BTW.
http://www.defi-shop.com/product/bf/bf_top.html)

Standard Legacy STi would be a ligher optioned, more performance focused package. It would have the Defi gauges, cloth interior (with colors, they like style, too) manual seats, no moon roof, and simple hvac controls and only 4 speaker standard stereo. Think "Club Sport," with all extra wiring for stereo, climate control, power seats, and NAV un-plugged and removed for weight savings. Possibly even a spoiler delete option to remove the spoilers an side sills. STi bumpers would have to remain with the fender flares.

The Legacy's target is the Audi A4, which has the ultrasport packages for each powertrain platform, (called S-line in europe) and above that is the actual performance-increased S4, as an actual "S" branded car. STi could be similar for the Legacy, STi itself becoming a performance moniker for any Subaru street-oriented cars, being Impreza and Legacy right now. Everyone is hopping on that bandwagon, on the success of BMW ///M. Jag, Volvo, Honda have R; Porsche, Audi, Acura have S, Merc has AMG, Caddy has -V, etc.

Subaru can use STi like Ford uses SVT. Parts Support AND Badged higher-performance cars. STi can, and does, mean more than just rally equipment. "WRX" stands more for "Rallying" than STi does, IMHO. STi seems to me to be an in-house tuning department, regardless of any racing series.

STi probably wouldn't apply as well to Outback or Forrester cross-overs. I'm not sure if an extra performance designator would work as well in that market anyway.

[agctr]

I would have to say that everything there in the last post is pretty much on target. The STi version does have legs to get up and run, we just have to hope that Mr Fuji is in the "lets suck it and see" mood. If the hype is anything to go by, the STi should sell like Hot Cakes at the local take away in the middle of NY on a mid-winter's day.

[SUBE555]

I'm not quite so sure I agree with the full scope of that view. I think there is just WAY too much going on with your thoughts there. Too much crossing of strategy, naming, and many things. Also, I think with the brand placement of Subaru and the size of the company, I believe either a full-on performance model or a performance package, I'm not convinced both is needed or feasible.

First and foremost names have to be concise: 2.5i, 2.5GT, 3.0R (the GT is only for the turbo-4 as per FHI.) I agree that if a pure performance model is to be releasedit should be named Legacy STi, and while perhaps just a performance package could be touted as Spec B Performance Package or S-Tune Performance pack, or something of the like. But like I said, for now, either one or the other.

I think to keep the punches rolling essentially, they have to have something big and new for the next few years. I think a Legacy 3.0R (no other names tacked on like LL Bean) along with perhaps a performance package that would add the STi Helical front LSD, a beefed up sporting suspension with better rubber, along with a standard short-throw, and perhaps a slightly higher level of engine tuning would be an excellent addition for say $2k-3k or so and available in all trims.

The reason I favor a performance package is because it allows the buyer to choose their trim level. An STi model would likely have all the goodies including power seats, leather, etc as not all enthusiasts desire. I will note though that I agree with the full-on STi model will need a turbocharged H6 to compete with the likes of the M3 and S4 nose to nose as more Audi, VW, and BMW owners actually appear to be comparing models though generally of lesser trims, I have seen some S4 owners trading in their cars for GT's! :o The performance package as noted would be a good step towards an STi though using the current engine setup with better handling and a bit more power while not completely breaking the bank, but an STi would likely have to be a full-on hardcore touring machine with the creature comforts required in the $35-40k range it would likely sit in.

I would also like to note I think the Legacy 3.0R model could actually be a hotly contested model if they actually offer a stick in it and if they offered the H6 with more torque and in lower portions of the rev-range. I think it would have been a bit better of an engine if they offered more like 240hp @ 6200rpm and about 240lb-ft @ 3800rpm. The engine is just too peaky to really be that much with as it's only offered with the auto too. Hard to use that juice on the street, particularly only in OB trim. I think it would be harder to compete with a BMW for that reason alone, where it makes the power. It just doesn't make it at all the right points IMO.

[MtnSub]

First of all, when you say compete with Audi/BMW, are you talking street drivers or autoX and racing?

Regarding competing with BMW X3, 325xiT, Audi A4 3.0, the new Leg GT is already doing that. Regarding competing head-to-head with S4/M3, why? I would rather have a $35K Sti that delivers 90-95% of S4/M3, with lower gas $, lower insurance $, wagon option and yes, $15k lower buy in.
If Suby delivers 280-300 ft. lbs with M3 like suspension and wow seats with wow stereo, they will gain S4/M3 type status and have many more customers than will ever buy S4/M3. This approach sounds better for non-rich enthusiasts and better for Subaru, a win, win.

When I see how extreme and aggressive the Leg GT advert campaign is, I gota believe that Suby already has their next two or three moves(punch) in motion. Leg Sti announce first of year for spring, performance package upgrade for all GTs etc.

So, what do you think Suby’s next move will be?

[agctr]

Unsure if the boys at BMW have read the very first post inside this tread but if they have they have offered a MASSIVE counter punch with their new WORLD EATING M5 5.0 Litre V10 punching out massive numbers such as 373kw, 520Nm of TWIST and 507BHP. UM WOW. Now those are HUGE figures regardless what school you went to.

ALTHOUGH, with a V10 plant, it would be hard not to expect figures like that. Once STi put the warming mits on the GT, Im more than sure that figures of 350HP will be within reach. My point ???? not bad for a 2.5 Boxer4 engine. Imagine what would could do with a V10, ouch that hurts to think.

[agctr]

Ahh the picture

[yacoub]

Looks better in black. ;)

Also, be sure to stop by bmw's website and take the interactive tour of the M5. It's worth it just to learn about it and see the awesome images of it.

[agctr]

Thanks for the heads up yacoub, cant wait to see similar figures on the lighter M6 version.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I WANT THOSE SIDE MIRRORS. Maybe they'll be repro'd like the E36 M3 mirrors were.

That is without a doubt the best looking bangled BMW I have seen. M6 is yet to come, though. But it still is a bangled BMW. Still quirky.

Count on european cars to show the best that can be done. M5, 911 and Carrera GT, Ferrari, Lambo, Maserati, Rolls, McLaren, Lotus, Jaguar, and on and on... Have heightened the state of the art throughout automotive history.

Still, I'll likely never be able to afford one of these cars. If it's technology trickles down, as it always seems to, cars like this M5 are at the top of the food chain, and hopefully those of us not in the stratosphere yet, will be benefiting from it soon.

I'd almost be too paranoid to drive an M5 around, anyway.

[Xenonk]

One STi is enough for the US soils. The one thing to look for would be a support group of legacy modifiers in the USA to make the Legacy near or even about STi status.

Keefe

[IwannaSportSedan]

One STi is enough for the US soils. The one thing to look for would be a support group of legacy modifiers in the USA to make the Legacy near or even about STi status.

Keefe

Ok, why? I don't mean to argue, but I would like to know why you say that...

I am all for legacy modding. I might do that, if/when I get a legacy.

Why should a Legacy STi not be built, or more likely, why should it be kept out of the USDM?

The forester gets an STi model in japan, and I really think the Legacy will too, considering we have already seen pics of the prototype.

Why are US buyers so "unworthy or undeserving" of a Legacy STi model, or Forester STi, for that matter?
Every other manufacturer that builds a sporty sedan has a performance model, or has one in the works. Why should Subaru hold theirs back? I am getting really sick of all the high-performance hardware that doesn't make it to our shores, already.

I'm personally not in the market for a WRX STi, and wouldn't buy one, even though I can really appreciate the technology in it. I don't need or want a rally car.

I want a midsize sport sedan, so why should I have to go with Audi or BMW, Lexus, or Infiniti rather than getting a Subaru, if I want the Subaru, and want a little more performance than the GT offers. Modding shouldn't have to be the only option. A high-performance alternative to a 330i Sport, Volvo R, or Audi S4, at a lot less money would sell well, if marketed correctly.

[agctr]

Ahh just wanted to keep the dream alive and kicking !!!!!!!!!

[racerdave]

Adam... did you drive the 6MT car yet?

[Drift Monkey]

Ahh