Stage 2 Ecutek dyno tune

[Legend]

2005 LGT non-ltd MT, 45K miles

Dyno Dynamics Dyno
Boulder, CO
5500 ft. elevation
94 degrees
91 octane

Ecutek dyno tune (today)
SPT intake/heatshield
Titek UP
Perrin DP (catted)
SPT CBE

18" 5Zigen Heidfeld Mesh wheels
Tein springs
StopTech Big Brake Kit

The results? Ouch. Granted it is a nice safe conservative Ecutek tune but I expected more.

I expected 225-235 HP and 245-255 TQ based on my mods versus others with similar Stage 2 mods on the forum and elsewhere posted on the internet with this particular dyno.

My baseline run (prior to Ecutek protune but with mods) was 191awhp/210tq and stock ECU map. After the tune it reached 210awhp/226tq. It feels better after the tune although I couldn't get out of traffic much. The tuner told me there can be a decent amount of variation even on the same engine based on temperature, etc. So I have mixed feelings. The car feels great and has more punch but knowing the numbers makes me feel like I am missing something (for stage 2 w/ intake and CBE).

Thoughts?

http://www.beeez.com/hostedpics/dyno.jpg

[2005garnetGT]

go get a tune somewhere else, people have seen gains like that with just a DP and no reflash.

[Infamous1]

Numbers seemed to be down in comparison to any dyno. What is your boost set to?

[Legend]

I won't be getting a tune somewhere else. Expensive. This guy is a renowned tuner anyhow so I think he knows what he is doing.

[AWDxBOOST]

elevation kills

[poopy]

it's a load baring dyno, remember that. it's real world #'s. go by how it runs on the street. most of these guys get tuned on a non-load baring dyno. also, who control the load counts. a tuner can make any # you want by changing load and jacking up tire pressure. they can get 300whp if they wanted so dont worry about it.

[mickeyd2005]

I'm looking at the delta percent beteween stock and stage 2. I'm not looking at absolute values.

Not impressive.

[awdG35killer]

how much boost is this tune at?

kinda low for any dyno for stage2.

[Legend]

I am double checking the boost with the tuner. It does feel good, but maybe a real-world run is what I need. Perhaps I could go with another stage 2 in the area and do a side-by-side 50-80 pull in 3rd gear on the highway (NOT a "race").

Then, if we run even I can stop being concerned about these dyno numbers. Any volunteers? PM me.

One other piece of info... the previous owner had a Cobb AP and somehow a 2006 rom/map was placed on the ECU. We overnighted the ECU to Cobb to straighten that out, then the Subaru dealer reprogrammed it and updated it on Saturday. The tuner commented that the ECU didn't seem stock prior to tuning... it should have been though.

[Ridgeracer]

Hummmm...i guess that would explain the small difference in peak whp/wtq.

[mickeyd2005]

One other piece of info... the previous owner had a Cobb AP and somehow a 2006 rom/map was placed on the ECU. We overnighted the ECU to Cobb to straighten that out, then the Subaru dealer reprogrammed it and updated it on Saturday. The tuner commented that the ECU didn't seem stock prior to tuning... it should have been though.

That would pretty much explain it. The stock dyno chart does look very high for 5500 feet.

BTW, when looking at boost, make sure you look at pressure ratio and not just relative boost. I know everyone here is focused on MRP but you really need to look at pressure ratio when you are not at sea level.

[Infamous1]

That would pretty much explain it. The stock dyno chart does look very high for 5500 feet.

Not quite remeber he states the baseline was done with the additional mods.

[Legend]

Car seems slower all the time but may be just my imagination... here is my first datalog... only had a couple minutes. Rename to .csv to view. Thanks for your input... none of this means anything to me yet.

[mickeyd2005]

That's not a good log but what you have shown is bad.

Log total timing and not base timing.

And datalog in 3rd gear from 2000 rpm to redline.

Are you sure you have the right map loaded?

[dbrunone]

Shouldn't you be getting like 250-260hp and like 265tq???

[Legend]

I'll go out tonight and get a good 3rd gear level-road WOT run 2000-redline. I know this log isn't great but the tactrix cable just came today and my laptop was having java problems. Glad I got something logged but will get a better one tonight.

[SeeeeeYa]

Include injector duty cycle in your parameters. It gives some indication of your fueling. Logging the AFR from the stock sensor is useless here. Also, log EGT. This also will be telling.

You'll love the Tactrix cable, small and USB.

[mickeyd2005]

OP won't get that kind of power becuase atmospheric pressure is only 12 psi.

However, the datalog shows some bad things.

edit: i'm replying to post #15

[Legend]

Here is a better log... 3rd gear run 2500rpm to redline. 88 degrees, 5300 ft, going up a mild hill.


NOW... after a month working on this, what do you guys see? THANKS, BTW!

[mickeyd2005]

That's much better.

It looks like a normal stage 2 datalog done at high altitude. Your peak compression ratio is 2.19 and your redline compression ratio is about 1.87. This is fairly typical.

Timing is smooth and fairly normal. The dip in total timing at 3500 rpm is not knock. That's the timing compensation IAT B (that's what merchgod calls it) turning off. It's a pain to tune with that compensation turning on and off at 3500 rpm. If you get a good tune at sea level, it can turn off at 3000 rpm.

If it was me, I would tune it more aggressively below 3800 rpm. You can get a lot better spool than that. Peak boost won't change. You can tune it so that peak boost comes on earlier.

[Legend]

mickeyd2005 - Man... thanks for the quick comments. I *will* learn all this stuff but for only having the car 6 weeks I think I am on my way. Anyhow, you didn't really point out anything wrong, other than it could use better tuning under 3800. I already spoke to my tuner (prior to logging I had told him it didn't feel that quick) and he welcomed me to bring it by to check it out sometime, so it sounds like he'd be willing to tweak it. I was hoping you'd see something really suboptimal or problematic in the log that I could focus my attention on.

Are there any HP or TQ calculations that can be done from this log or are such calculations kinda voodoo/meaningless?

My damn laptop batteries aren't helping. I rarely have that laptop off it's dock and was surprised that the batteries (two of 'em) only keep the thing powered for 8-10 minutes... so I quickly take off from my house to the nearest highway-like road and hit it hard before those batteries die... and that road is a decent rolling slope so my runs right now are either up it or down it.... I've only got a half mile to work with too. I ordered new laptop batteries so I can actually get the damn thing off it's dock for more than 8 minutes.

[mickeyd2005]

You can calculate acceleration using the datalog but it would only be applicable to your car due to things like:

1. altitude = less air resistance (engine boost reduction already taken into account)
2. slope of road
3. weight of car
4. tires
5. everything else under the sun

So, what I do is datalog on the same road and compare changes.

If you can do a datalog in 3rd gear on a flat road from 2000 rpm to 6000 rpm, I would be happy to calculate some acceleration values for you.

Everyone's philosophy on tuning is different. Your tune looks safe and reasonable for your altitude.

[SeeeeeYa]

My damn laptop batteries aren't helping. I rarely have that laptop off it's dock and was surprised that the batteries (two of 'em) only keep the thing powered for 8-10 minutes... so I quickly take off from my house to the nearest highway-like road and hit it hard before those batteries die... and that road is a decent rolling slope so my runs right now are either up it or down it.... I've only got a half mile to work with too. I ordered new laptop batteries so I can actually get the damn thing off it's dock for more than 8 minutes.

Although my laptop's battery operation is reasonable, my ride to my favorite logging site and back takes over half an hour. Add in the fact I often stop to tune and tweak my maps during and I can be out on a log and tune project for two or three hours. To make this possible I have a little laptop power inverter I use all the time. Not only does it power the laptop indefinitely it also keeps it fully operational. I don't know about yours but mine works at one level powered and another on batteries. I prefer ALL my laptop's ability all the time.

There hasn't been much said about this but since you are logging I will. I hope you secure your laptop during these times on the road and don't just have it sitting on the seat. I asked a buddy about it and he doesn't secure his. That is all well and good until the time you need to brake hard. Then the laptop will go flying and you will possibly damage it or find yourself grabbing for it. Neither is good.

I bought a cheap cargo strapping set from AutoZone. I needed one to secure my meth tank in the trunk. The other I have fed through the slot between my folding seatback and the seat and secured behind it that I loop around the lower half of the laptop and secure. It won't go anywhere. I used to use my seatbelt, which works ok, but I didn't like the belt obscuring my access to the keyboard. The strap allows 100% access and holds the laptop perfectly. A suggestion.

[Legend]

So I'll ask my tuner for a little more aggressive tune under 3,800rpm. How can you tell that my tune isn't more aggressive in that rpm range and what parameters would he be tweaking?

Are there any other values that would be useful to log? How about values I need not bother to log?


There hasn't been much said about this but since you are logging I will. I hope you secure your laptop during these times on the road and don't just have it sitting on the seat. I asked a buddy about it and he doesn't secure his. That is all well and good until the time you need to brake hard. Then the laptop will go flying and you will possibly damage it or find yourself grabbing for it. Neither is good.

Good idea... I hadn't thought of securing it. I'll do that once I get those new batteries.

[mickeyd2005]

It's a guess. You'll need to post a log from 2000 rpm to at least 4000 rpm for me to be sure.

I use a much more aggressive WGDC table when pressure ratio < 2.0 and rpm < 4000 rpm. However, you have to be careful where the WGDC is set to taper down. If you don't set it up properly, it will overboost in 4th and 5th gear. You can't effectively do this with an OTS tune because of variations between cars (such as spring load, etc...) but if the tuner is customizing your tune, he can certainly look through your logs and adjust the tables to maximize spool up.

[tommypenguin]

So I'll ask my tuner for a little more aggressive tune under 3,800rpm. How can you tell that my tune isn't more aggressive in that rpm range and what parameters would he be tweaking?

Are there any other values that would be useful to log? How about values I need not bother to log?



Good idea... I hadn't thought of securing it. I'll do that once I get those new batteries.


Whats going on man? I'm running stage 1 right now if you would like to compare to that maybe we could meet up this weekend and take a stroll. You should have no problem walking away from me if your stage 2 is running right.

[MiniStiGuy]

my stg 1 puts down 230hp/240tq at roughly ~1000 above sealevel.

[Infamous1]

^^^
On a 5EAT too!

[MiniStiGuy]

:D thanks Shamar!!!!

[Legend]

Alright did a little more datalogging this a.m.

78 degrees outside, 91 octane, 5300ft, atmospheric pressure 12.19

3rd gear run
I ran out of room and let off the throttle at 6700rpm@93mph. I want to take a run at the 1/4 mile in a week or two and I expect to trap around 95mph (+/- 3mph). It looks like I'll be able to complete the 1/4 without shifting into 4th.

50-80 5.0
60-80 3.5
peak MAF 207 @89mph
peak boost 14.07 @52mph

1320 appoximation
Well damn again I ran out of room. I wasn't terribly aggressive on the launch... also I think I am shifting too late (6800rpm and 6600rpm). I think I need to be a lot closer to 6000rpm based on my power curves.
0-60 5.9
0-88 11.5 (that was the high speed on this run)
I think I will hit ~14.5 at Bandimere.

2nd gear run

Mainly did this to see if I could hit 60mph in 2nd gear. I hit 60mph around 6300-6400rpm. Top speed in 2nd is 65mph at 6900rpm. I floored it until fuel cut off at 7000rpm.

[chenc544]

Your peak boost seem kindda low. My boost peaks at ~16.3 psi with TDC stage II map and I'm at 6200'. I guess your tunner must have decided to erred on the safe side.

[chenc544]

For comparison here are couple of my logs from this morning. It was about 68 deg out and atm pressure was around 12.0 psi. I was on my way to work so they were done at ~5200-5300 ft. The first run was up a bit of a hill, the second run was done on flater part of the road but still up hill.

The one thing that I noticed is that my MAF is lower than yours on the top end. My MAF is higher than yours up until about 4000 RPM but after that your car is flowing much more air. BTW my mods are AVO panel filter, Megan catless UP/DP/TBE and TDC stage II map. I wonder if the intake makes that much of the difference.

[Legend]

The one thing that I noticed is that my MAF is lower than yours on the top end. My MAF is higher than yours up until about 4000 RPM but after that your car is flowing much more air. BTW my mods are AVO panel filter, Megan catless UP/DP/TBE and TDC stage II map. I wonder if the intake makes that much of the difference.

Thanks a lot for posting those. It's really helpful for me to have something very comparable to look at. Quite a different data set, particularly with regard to boost and MAF. Your rig is tuned for quite a bit more boost than mine, especially in the low rpm.

Running these cars side by side would be fun. Look at 30-60mph. It takes mine 5.5s and only takes yours 5s. You have a big 0.5s jump early. But then from 60-90mph it takes me 5.6s and takes you 6.1s and I get that 0.5s back. The cars have identical times from 30-90mph but they sure run it differently. Of course we weren't on the same road, so that might go a long way in explaining the differences too...

I'm new to this, but since are mods are about identical except for intake, perhaps the intake really does help MAF and top end. FWIW, my DP and CBE also mate flush at 3" diameter (no donut present to squeeze the diameter there slightly.) I need a more aggressive tune down low. I don't think I want to have peak boost over 16 but I do want to be over 14.0

Any body else got a fresh log on a stage 2 Denver car?

[Legend]

Another rough day with my Ecutek tune. I went in to have the PWDC table tweaked to get more boost early and higher peak boost (was 14.0). The tuner updated the table and flashed the ECU. I went out and logged a 3rd gear run and good grief it was worse than before. The PWDC table is stuck at 40.0 until after 2800rpm… I’m not hitting peak boost until 4700rpm and then it’s only 12.7. Two more flashes and no luck.

The tuner called Ecutek and I guess it is a known issue they are working on with their latest software update… it’s not flashing the PWDC table or…?? I am not sure but the tuner and I are frustrated. He thinks Ecutek will get it worked out pretty quickly and he has one other client who is having the same problem.

So, after 3 hours (including the drive), the car left running much less tuned than when I took it in…. grrrrr….. I am going back next week. Hopefully Ecutek has the fix by then!

[mickeyd2005]

Is this a "new" ecu?

Prior to your ecutek tune, has the dealer ever flashed a new rom to it or replaced the ecu?

[Legend]

Is this a "new" ecu?

Prior to your ecutek tune, has the dealer ever flashed a new rom to it or replaced the ecu?

The previous owner had a v1 AP and had flashed a stage 1 map. Prior to selling it he flashed it back to stock. When I test drove it, I noted that the cruise control did not work (no CEL). After taking it to the tuner, and then to a dealership, it was determined that the Cobb map that the previous owner flashed was incorrect - it was a 2006 instead of 2005. The dealer worked with Cobb and pulled the ECU, overnighted it to Cobb, reinstalled it and updated it with stock Subaru updates. Cruise worked fine... then it was time for the tuner...

The tuner chose Ecutek and put together a conservative tune. After getting my Tactrix cable and logging and comparing to other logs (and feedback here), I decided to pursue a little more aggressive tune.

Thanks for following along, mickey.

Here's the log....

[mickeyd2005]

There is a table that merchgod (opensource) refers to as Initial Wastegate Duty Alternate (RPM). For some reason, the 510N rom doesn't seem to use this table. However, the 521N and 522N rom does indeed use this table. You have at least a 522N rom or possibly even later since you have a new flash from the Subaru dealer. Cobb bases their rom on the 510N so they don't have this issue.

IIRC, it works by a time delay.

On the stock rom, from 2000 to 2800 rpm, it is 40.0. Then it ramps up to 42.5 by 3600 rpm. However, if a certain amount of time passes, it ramps up to your initial WGDC values.

Increase the value to 75 or 80 and you should be good to go.

I am surprised that your ecutek dealer is not aware of this.

[Legend]

Increase the value to 75 or 80 and you should be good to go.

I am surprised that your ecutek dealer is not aware of this.

I'm not sure whether he knows that or not, but I do know that he tried 3 times yesterday to increase the initial values to 90 but the Ecutek software just would't write to the ECU. He is convinced it is an Ecutek problem due to having one other client with the exact same problem. The other client is taking his car in again Friday and the tuner will be on the phone to the guys at Ecuteck.

Now I am wondering if I should just abandon Ecutek altogether and take a loss.

The tuner mentioned he'd be willing to due an Enginuity tune and throw in the first hour of dyno time free. I've been very disappointed with the Ecutek process and hate having to drive and spend hours any time we need to try something.

Presumably, at least with Enginuity, I could use my own Tactrix cable and have access on my own to the ECU. Not that I'd want to mess with it much, but at least I wouldn't be hostage to Ecutek and having to make the drive, etc...

Thoughts on Enginuity vs. Ecutek?? If the tuner is good, wouldn't the end result be about the same?

[2005garnetGT]

Thoughts on Enginuity vs. Ecutek?? If the tuner is good, wouldn't the end result be about the same?

yes.

[SeeeeeYa]

Presumably, at least with Enginuity, I could use my own Tactrix cable and have access on my own to the ECU. Not that I'd want to mess with it much, but at least I wouldn't be hostage to Ecutek and having to make the drive, etc...

Precisely why I made that scary leap to Street Tuner! I have since gotten the Tactrix and while I do all my current tuning with ST I use the opensource community for ideas and information. Soon, however, if it hasn't already done so, Enginuity's scope of tuning abilities will exceed that of ST. Real time tuning is ST's big plus right now as well as their proven 'starter' tunes.

What little of you comes across in your posts says self-tuning is for you. You will have help where necessary, like mickeyd's. For me the money spent on ST was much more than worth it. Tuners can use it to tune your car also, and thereafter you can modify that tune if you want. No more being held hostage to tuners, dynos, and ignorance....

[mickeyd2005]

I'm not sure whether he knows that or not, but I do know that he tried 3 times yesterday to increase the initial values to 90 but the Ecutek software just would't write to the ECU. He is convinced it is an Ecutek problem due to having one other client with the exact same problem. The other client is taking his car in again Friday and the tuner will be on the phone to the guys at Ecuteck.

Now I am wondering if I should just abandon Ecutek altogether and take a loss.

The tuner mentioned he'd be willing to due an Enginuity tune and throw in the first hour of dyno time free. I've been very disappointed with the Ecutek process and hate having to drive and spend hours any time we need to try something.

Presumably, at least with Enginuity, I could use my own Tactrix cable and have access on my own to the ECU. Not that I'd want to mess with it much, but at least I wouldn't be hostage to Ecutek and having to make the drive, etc...

Thoughts on Enginuity vs. Ecutek?? If the tuner is good, wouldn't the end result be about the same?

Your WGDC changes from 40% at 2800 rpm. That is exactly where the RPM table tells it to. Also, your WGDC is fine above 4000 rpm. This tells me that your initial WGDC is probably just fine.

Te RPM WGDC table is a different table than the WGDC init table.

The equivalent table may not be available in ecutek software. I just assumed it was. Merchgod has been adding lots of new tables and sometimes he beats the commercial vendors to the punch. However, this particular table has been around for quite a while.

The enginuity tune will always be superior for one reason alone... you can revert to stock anytime you want.

There's only one problem. The 521N and 522N has an additional time delay in the WGDC logic. It's not just a table that the end user can edit. merchgod manually edited the rom for some of us. Most people use the 510N rom so there isn't a problem but you have a newer rom. If you decide to go with enginuity, you'll need to PM merchgod and ask him to modify your rom for you. I don't know him personally, but I'm not sure if he would be too thrilled giving it to a commercial ecutek tuner. You'll have to ask him.

[merchgod]

There's only one problem. The 521N and 522N has an additional time delay in the WGDC logic. It's not just a table that the end user can edit. merchgod manually edited the rom for some of us. Most people use the 510N rom so there isn't a problem but you have a newer rom. If you decide to go with enginuity, you'll need to PM merchgod and ask him to modify your rom for you. I don't know him personally, but I'm not sure if he would be too thrilled giving it to a commercial ecutek tuner. You'll have to ask him.
I really don't care who has it. The only reason I haven't added the fix to the ecu definitions is because it requires more than one change to the code. Enginuity is set up to do one consecutive patch per switch table (ex. CEL fix), but not to do groups of changes in different parts of the rom. Meaning that if I added the fix to the definitions, I would have to rely on the user to enable multiple switch tables for one fix (which would not be very elegant) and would also cause problems if they ended up only enabling some of the switches. I haven't posted a fixed version of a factory rom because then you run into the issue of the user not transferring their tune over properly and blaming the fix because of problems.

So, until Enginuity adds the ability to do multiple patches under one switch, I can patch your tuned rom if you PM it to me. However, I do not make any guarantees and you use it at your own risk.

[Legend]

Most people use the 510N rom so there isn't a problem but you have a newer rom.

Presumably. I am trying to figure out which rom I have to be sure. How extensive is the Ecutek ecu lockout? Should I at least be able to identify my rom?? I tried both EcuFlash and Enginuity but no luck. What other tools should I try to identify my rom?

The enginuity tune will always be superior for one reason alone... you can revert to stock anytime you want.

That's a plus. My tuner will hopefully have some insight into the ecutek problem on Friday and I head back there on Tuesday... we'll see where to go from there.

BTW, thanks mickey and merchgod for your help!

[merchgod]

Presumably. I am trying to figure out which rom I have to be sure. How extensive is the Ecutek ecu lockout? Should I at least be able to identify my rom?? I tried both EcuFlash and Enginuity but no luck. What other tools should I try to identify my rom?
You should be able to get the ecu id in Enginuity's logger (lower right hand corner) as the Ecutek lock shouldn't impact logging (as far as I know). Post the ecu id and I can tell you which revision you have.

[Legend]

Post the ecu id and I can tell you which revision you have.

2F12785206

Thanks merchgod.

[merchgod]

510n

[Legend]

I spoke with my tuner again today. He is very disappointed in Ecutek. He has another client that made his 3rd visit last Friday to get his Ecutek tune resolved. Some of the people from Ecutek had agreed to be ready for the phone call last Friday to get this other guy's LGT Ecutek tune fixed. The Ecutek people were a total no-show, however! The tuner has used Ecutek for years and knows what he is doing, but says he just can't recommend Ecutek for LGT's right now (although he says Ecutek has always been great with WRX's).

So, tomorrow Ecutek is getting wiped off my ECU. I will be getting an Enginuity tune from another tuner at the same shop.

So... I'll get my hopes back up for what I expected before from this dyno - 230HP, 250TQ. We'll see... I'll just be glad to be done with this Ecutek mess!

[MiniStiGuy]

good luck man....


I'm 230/240 right now on a protune TDC stg 1 map...

I hope you get your problems resolved.

[Legend]

Hehehe... got the car back from the tuner. Ecutek is off my ECU for good! The new tune is an open source Enginuity tune. How do you think it compared to the Ecutek tune??? I'll post my dyno sheets later tonight after work (same dyno, same car)... then some logs later this week.

Let's just say I am VERY happy to have Ecutek gone... ;) And I think I'll start a new thread... this thead has been too frustrating... The new thread, likely to be called "Ecutek vs. Enginuity" will have a different tone. Bring on Enginuity!

[Legend]

See new thread: http://www.legacygt.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=12