Is the Cobb's Accessport a waste of money?

[XLeezardx]

I recently ran into someone on another forum that told me that the AP is a completey waste of money because I can do the exact thing with a $70 cable. what do u guys think?

[2005garnetGT]

how much does the laptop that you need to use that $70 cable cost?

;)

[eqt2010]

how much does the laptop that you need to use that $70 cable cost?

;)

I use my company's laptop for flashing/editing maps so it costs me $0. :lol::lol:

[edkwon]

I recently ran into someone on another forum that told me that the AP is a completey waste of money because I can do the exact thing with a $70 cable. what do u guys think?

Since a $70 cable is a lot cheaper than a $700 accessport, go ahead and purchase it and let us know how your tuning results turn out, it'll make for an interesting price comparison.

[XLeezardx]

Can that $70 cable read my boost, moh 1/4 mile times ect through software?

[gianspi]

Can that $70 cable read my boost, moh 1/4 mile times ect through software?

You can datalog with it.

[mickeyd2005]

You can get a much cheaper VAG COM cable if the only thing you want to do is datalog. IIRC, Integroid is using a VAG COM cable to datalog because the AP V2 cable doesn't have any USB drivers that allows it to be used to datalog.

The TACTRIX cable has special voltage modulating chips that allow ECUFLASH to flash the ECU. I think the cheapest one is $79+shipping.

[Boostjunkie]

You can certainly acheive the same basic results, but you do get value for your money with the AP. Preloaded maps, real time maps/tuning all in a little handheld device. The compact size of the unit makes it much more convenient to tote around than a laptop. The interface, functionality and real time mapping make Protuner the definate tool of preference for professional tuners. Most professional tuners will not tune opensource flashing software.

Some guys become very adept as getting the most out of their cars with opensource tools. Other are far more capable of doing more harm than good. I have personally seen several cars that made the same or less hp/tq than stock cars, even though they were modded. Some of the opensource maps out there are very good, some.... well, Mom always said that if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all... ;)

[mickeyd2005]

Definitely agree, it's the tuner that's the most important.

I have personally seen a datalog from a protuned LGT using a Cobb AP that was not good. It didn't knock; it was just lame and you could tell how the tuner was lazy at mapping the timing.

The Cobb AP gives the tuner more security in knowing their maps aren't going to be shared freely but it also prevents the car owner from reviewing the map to see what the tuner did. (I know you can still read the base map using ecuflash and the real-time map can be read... but with a little more difficulty).

[Cliff]

Not a waste of money at all if you don't want to try to tune your own car. I don't know enough about tuning to even try. I love my Accessport.

[edkwon]

If you know how to tune the car yourself or know a tuner willing to do it for you, then go head by all means get the cheaper option, but if either is not an option, then good luck messing around with your ECU blindly

[Han'sGT]

if you know what your doing, go for it. if not...car go boom!

[Spec B]

IMO unless you have some good idea on how to tune, the Cobb AP will always be the safer bet. And you have the added security that cobb will help you out in the event something goes screwy during the flash.

[edkwon]

I suggest we just encourage the OP to go with the cheaper option and then tell us stories of the consequences, maybe he'll luck out and save himself a bunch of cash, or maybe he'll meet with something bad and it can serve as a cautionary tale for other forum ppl

[AWDxBOOST]

you still need a good program for tuning, and rarely are there good free programs for tuning

[GTTuner]

Forget about tuning yourself unless you have an extra car you can use. By the time your done fiddle tuning with a butt dyno it will probably have gone BOOM.

For the $$$$, you can't beat the AP bang for the buck. I keep several maps loaded in mine, including a 100 octane race gas map.

If you can get the correct ecu tools, monitor your A/F and KC correctly, go for it.

[2005garnetGT]

enginuity must be an exception, because its great.

its UI is leagues ahead of other opensource/free ECU tools
(crome or uberdata come to mind)

you still need a good program for tuning, and rarely are there good free programs for tuning

[dan_m]

my car was tuned using enginuity - no problems at all, the tuner I have does about 5 subies a month.... why spend megabucks for cobb or ecutec?

[f1anatic]

It is a question of whether you wanna pay up later for your mishaps...or not. ECU management is something I am willing to pay for...not necessarily to point fingers when things go south but rather because it was developped on purpose by knowledgeable people who were paid to dick with that thing only...as opposed to part-time "hobby" approach. Good luck.

[AWDxBOOST]

enginuity must be an exception, because its great.

its UI is leagues ahead of other opensource/free ECU tools
(crome or uberdata come to mind)

that is one of the exceptions :icon_chee

[Fat Charlie]

I've played with computers since my Vic-20, and I don't have the balls to play with my ECM. I don't have the budget to get an AP, but I'll wait until I do.

[serendipity]

It's funny how your average legacy owner has no balls when it comes to mods. Stop drinking the kool-aid and parroting everything you read on this board.

The open source tools are IDENTICAL to the access port. They're touching the same damn things in the same damn ways. If you get one of the off-the-shelf free maps available, you're going to get the same thing as you would with an Access Port, but for 1/10 the price.

If you don't want to fiddle with it, you don't have to. Enginuity happens to have the functionality of Street Tuner built in (for free), but you don't have to use it. You can just use ECUFlash to load an off the shelf map (or one of the e-maps you can buy from $25 from whatever tuner whose name I can't think of).

[2005garnetGT]

thats not recommended.

at least one LGT owner has flashed the wrong map to his car and bricked his ECU.

you should always copy all of the modified tables over to the rom that came on your car, then flash that to your car.

That leaves no chance of overwriting the precious bootstrap code that allows and initiates communications between flash kernal and ECU.

[Fat Charlie]

Mods are one thing, but modding the computer is less easy to spot mistakes. Other than getting an inconvenient ride from my wife, this is my only car. I need it to run. Sure, a new ECM is less than an AP, but by the time I spot a problem I'll have damaged more than just the computer.

I know OS tools are the same. I just trust an established company to provide me with maps more than I'll trust freely downloaded or self created ones. I also don't think my car is a slouch, so tuning is really low on my priority list. If it were higher, I'd look into it more closely- until then, I'd be better off paying The Man if I want to play.

[Komodo Wagon]

For what people get on this forum for used accessport's, why take the risk on an open source map? Half the reason I plunked down the $600 bucks or so for my AP was that I know I can get $500 bucks back out of it when I sell my car next year. $100 net for a proven product? That is a no -brainer to me.

[biz77]

It's funny how your average legacy owner has no balls when it comes to mods. Stop drinking the kool-aid and parroting everything you read on this board.

The open source tools are IDENTICAL to the access port. They're touching the same damn things in the same damn ways. If you get one of the off-the-shelf free maps available, you're going to get the same thing as you would with an Access Port, but for 1/10 the price.

If you don't want to fiddle with it, you don't have to. Enginuity happens to have the functionality of Street Tuner built in (for free), but you don't have to use it. You can just use ECUFlash to load an off the shelf map (or one of the e-maps you can buy from $25 from whatever tuner whose name I can't think of).

Well Serendipity I certainly agree with you to a point. A tune from an A/P, ECUtek, Enginuity etc. will all yield the same results as the data altered is the same. For anyone who believes that your choice in engine management will have an impact on the overall tune I know of another forum that you might like to join: http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum//

Where I don't agree with you is your statement of the OpenSource tools being identical to the A/P. This is very obviously not the case. Enginuity does not currently offer real-time tuning and flashing, however Cobb does. It may be just around the corner that Enginuity offers this feature, but they don't have it YET. There is also no open source tools that include a convenient device to carry and load maps with. I find it cumbersome to carry a laptop in the car with me at all times just in case I want to change maps. Cobb offers a unique peice of hardware just for that challenge and it works great.
I've owned an A/P and I feel it is the best ECU re-mapping solution currently available for Subarus given the features and support that it has. I must also admit that I'm currently running an Enginuity stage 1 reflash. Currently I don't have a need for all of the extra features the A/P offers and I spent a whopping $90 on a cable to get the same end result as a Cobb Stage 1 reflash.
There are plenty of highly regarded tuners reflashing with Enginuity and ECUflash these days and there is no reason not to consider this as an option, especially if you don't need the bells and whistles the A/P offers and/or you want to save a few bucks.

[MDW25gt]

Interesting stuff.

[imstillatwork]

You can also just go get a professional tune / re-flash without buying any hardware at all. . . It all depends on what you want

[dan_m]

bottom line: enginuity rocks ( so long as you can find a tuner that knows what he's doing ... which is not so obvious sometimes )

[STIMD]

Why aren't people sharing ROMs here like they do HERE:

http://www.plasmatize.com/osecuroms/viewtopic.php?t=126&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[urfsin]

^^^ good question

[mickeyd2005]

Actually, people do share their ROMs. If you go to enginuity.org and look through their tuning forum, people will post their log AND their ROM when asking for advice.

The reason is simple. To properly analyze a log, you need to see the ROM.

I don't think there are as many LGT owners using opensource as there are WRX owners.

[whobaru]

This thread has me biting my fingernails on what to do...argh! I like to play it safe, so I'll probably end up with the AP. My wife would be pissed if I screwed up my car doing something stupid.

[SQC049]

I see it this way, if you have someone in your area that is willing to tune using the open source stuff, or if you are confident that you can do it yourself, by all means buy the cable and save the money.

But if you are not comfortable with tuning it yourself and no tuner in your area will touch open source, get an AP and run an OTS map, e-tune map or find a tuner who will tune the AP, most will.

[whobaru]

Do ppl in here re-flash back to stock for smog?

[biz77]

This thread has me biting my fingernails on what to do...argh! I like to play it safe, so I'll probably end up with the AP. My wife would be pissed if I screwed up my car doing something stupid.

Check out Dominic's site:
http://www.getadomtune.com/index_files/Page433.htm. Bottom left corner (Internet tune)

Pay $80 for the cable (+ shipping) and have him do an e-tune for $30. Send him logs and let him tweak it to your car.
He is a well respected tuner with experience tuning Subarus, is active on the open source boards and a member here (imprezarsx - 06 LGT.) He also has a stage 1 and a couple of stage 2 base maps over at osecuroms.org

[2005garnetGT]

Do ppl in here re-flash back to stock for smog?

no, because if I flash to stock all my CELs that I have disabled will pop back up and fail me.

[whobaru]

Curious...on a website selling the AP it says you can use it to go back to stock. I think it can. I wanted someone else's input.

[Metal2You]

Yes you can go back to stock after using an AP. With the V2 AP your stock ROM is downloaded to the AP when you "install" it. When you "uninstall" the AP it loads that saved ROM back onto your ECU.

[whobaru]

Nnnnice! That's a priceless comfort for me.

[biz77]

You can go back to stock with any of the mentioned options.

[Kargurra]

With the AP, is there any record of it having been used once it's set back to stock? Can they tell if you've been changing maps for, say, warranty issues?

[whobaru]

With the AP, is there any record of it having been used once it's set back to stock? Can they tell if you've been changing maps for, say, warranty issues?

I was very curious of this myself. How does that work out? Also, if anyone has any info., is smog pretty easy after re-flashing to stock while retaining aftermarket exhaust?

[2005garnetGT]

no, you will NOT pass smog if you reflash back to stock!
your car will throw either a p0420 or a p2096 code for catalyst efficiency if you do.

just smog somewhere other then your dealership and leave the stage 2 map on the car.

[RangerMan]

Here is a REALLY dumb question. I have a Win XP laptop (one of the first Win XP loaded computers, I think we bought it in 2001). Anyways, I am going to be getting a Mac soon. Do any of these open source programs work for a mac and do any of the cables work through a USB port? Are computers still even coming with serial ports? Should I just keep my old laptop if I ever want to do tuning/dataloging myself?

[2005garnetGT]

the opensource cable is usb-based, but afaik all the programs are pc-only as of now.

[RangerMan]

Cool thanks. Looks like that old laptop will be around for some time yet!

[whobaru]

no, you will NOT pass smog if you reflash back to stock!
your car will throw either a p0420 or a p2096 code for catalyst efficiency if you do.

just smog somewhere other then your dealership and leave the stage 2 map on the car.

Another smog place will approve? The car will still have acceptable emissions because it is new, so any other shop will okay it?

[whobaru]

^^^ How about California? Do you know?

[lawl]

I was very curious of this myself. How does that work out? Also, if anyone has any info., is smog pretty easy after re-flashing to stock while retaining aftermarket exhaust?

The AP saves the original program onto itself, and so when you install it loads it back.

Unless you give the dealership a reason to suspect something I dont think they'll notice. Hell even if you do give them a reason i think to find out they'd spend more time than they would like to anyway.


I think the guy says he'd get CELs is because he is stage 2 or so... and is missing some cats.

If you are stock and flash to stage 1, then flashed back to stock in order to do smog i dont see why you would fail.

[XLeezardx]

eww your getting a mac? :p

[2005garnetGT]

Another smog place will approve? The car will still have acceptable emissions because it is new, so any other shop will okay it?

does any state actually hook a sniffer up to your car?

here in PA since its an OBD2 vehicle they just check the gas cap, and hook the scanner up.

[Kargurra]

CT doesn't do it with AWD cars. They do hook it up to a sniffer on anything pre-'96, and I believe they run dynos on 2WD cars no matter what the year.

[Spec B #127]

Not a waste of money at all if you don't want to try to tune your own car. I don't know enough about tuning to even try. I love my Accessport.
+1. The Accessport was the best $700 have spent on any car modification.

[WombatGT]

2005garnet: On the PC/Mac issue. All the new Macbook/ Pros are Intel processors, you can load WinXP either with Bootcamp in dual boot, or use Parrallels to run Windows in a window inside OSX with little or no performance hit. So you get the best of both.

[camber]

So... With a new Tactrix Openport cable susposedly coming in June for CANbus cars. Do you think it would better to get tactrix cable or AP V2?

Does anyone know if the new Tactrix Openport 2.0 now support real time tuning/maps?

[AKLGT]

I bought my AP V2 for the new car and one for the 07 STI. I think it was a good investment and so far, been happy with my AP's. I'm not into open source tuning and don't feel the need to either. Unless you want to do your own tuning, the AP is a great way to go. There's a lot of R&D that goes into them, and I personally prefer that safety net.

[camber]

Well... I already bought a AP V2!

The closest suby tuner to me only tunes with open sauce. AP is smaller and I don't have to carry around a laptop. However, will I be leaving anything on the table going either route?

Is one option that much better to tune with(assuming that Openport get real time tuning/maps)?

[camber]

Hmmm... I thought that more 07-08 people would be considering this option.

[harman.khinda]

Well... I already bought a AP V2!

The closest suby tuner to me only tunes with open sauce. AP is smaller and I don't have to carry around a laptop. However, will I be leaving anything on the table going either route?

Is one option that much better to tune with (assuming that Openport get real time tuning/maps)?

It depends on the tuner. You can have an equally good tune either way. Assuming Engenuity gets real time tuning/maps it will be equally as easy for the tuner to tune the car either way. Most professional tuners prefer AP to tune with for a number of reasons. If you can find a professional tuner that will tune using open source I wouldn't hesitate to go that way. If you got to the open source tuner I'm pretty sure you can upload the open source map on the car, (or have it saved to a USB chip from the tuner) convert it to AP format and then upload it to your AP.

[harman.khinda]

For me though the AP is a waste of money, $700 for a computer that only serves one purpose when for cheaper you could get a laptop and data log too. If I had the money I'd get a Car PC with a tactrix cable hooked up.

[whobaru]

The AP is for those WITH money and less time.

[JDMChizad]

I like my AP. Way too overpriced, though. I like being able to switch maps and try different things. Eventually, I'd like to do my own tuning with a laptop, though.

[2005garnetGT]

wow, look how helpful and informative I was when I actually cared....

interesting.

[Infamous1]

The AP is for those WITH money and less time.
Not true opensource actually flashes faster and there are vendors who also offer staged mapping as well. Just because you have money to waste doesn't mean you should.

[Infamous1]

So... With a new Tactrix Openport cable susposedly coming in June for CANbus cars. Do you think it would better to get tactrix cable or AP V2?

Does anyone know if the new Tactrix Openport 2.0 now support real time tuning/maps?
Tactrix cable is a better route as long as you have a laptop. Will do the exact thing as the AP only cheaper. Only advantage the AP has is realtime flashing for tuning. Besides that it only takes about 1 min or so to flash a new rom via opensopurce. If your not tuning it really is a no brainer. Realtime/Ram tuning is in the future but no the new cable will not implemet this.

[whobaru]

Not true opensource actually flashes faster and there are vendors who also offer staged mapping as well. Just because you have money to waste doesn't mean you should.

You have to know what you're doing and take more risk to use a laptop (IMO). When you buy an AP, they ship it to you, you plug it in, and you're done. How the h3ll is a laptop route gonna be faster?!

[XLeezardx]

Ive been there and done that. I used to own an accessport, its very nice simple and safe tool for beginners or people who just dont mess with thier ECU alot. Now im all opensource with taxtrix cable and this is the best choice for my preference.

[whobaru]

agreed

[Infamous1]

You have to know what you're doing and take more risk to use a laptop (IMO). When you buy an AP, they ship it to you, you plug it in, and you're done. How the h3ll is a laptop route gonna be faster?!
Honestly you would have to try it to understand. It really is pretty much the same procedure as the AP.

[harman.khinda]

^ I dream of having a CarPC with a tactrix cable always hooked to the OBDII port. Never have to fiddle with wires, a laptop or AP and changing the map would always just be a flew clicks a way. The only problem I see is that I'd like get the new one and use the display as a gauge cluster for boost, EGT etc. and there is only one OBDII port. I think it would just be ubber-cool to have the ability to tune self-contained(cant think of the right word) in the car.

[whobaru]

Then you'd be fast and furious.

[AKLGT]

^ I dream of having a CarPC with a tactrix cable always hooked to the OBDII port. Never have to fiddle with wires, a laptop or AP and changing the map would always just be a flew clicks a way. The only problem I see is that I'd like get the new one and use the display as a gauge cluster for boost, EGT etc. and there is only one OBDII port. I think it would just be ubber-cool to have the ability to tune self-contained(cant think of the right word) in the car.
ya, 2 yrs ago and $1500 later.... never got it to work right and scrapped the project. :rolleyes: it's a good IDEA, but much harder to have it actually work. Boot time and battery drain to keep the stupid thing going for your quick stops was just too much of a hassle.

[g2redgsr]

i just ordered my AP v2 ill let you know how it goes...its nice having the warrenty and if anything goes wrong i can flash it back to stock map :-D

[Infamous1]

i just ordered my AP v2 ill let you know how it goes...its nice having the warrenty and if anything goes wrong i can flash it back to stock map :-D
Warranty covers the AP unit and you can also flash back to the original stock map unlike the first AP.

[f1anatic]

^ I dream of having a CarPC with a tactrix cable always hooked to the OBDII port. Never have to fiddle with wires, a laptop or AP and changing the map would always just be a flew clicks a way. The only problem I see is that I'd like get the new one and use the display as a gauge cluster for boost, EGT etc. and there is only one OBDII port. I think it would just be ubber-cool to have the ability to tune self-contained(cant think of the right word) in the car.


You surely do not know what you are wishing for. As AKLGT mentioned years later and thousands of dollars later I tell you that is not as easy as it sounds.

I agree that Cobb AP is overpriced. But it is a convenient tool and I tell you, the tuner in my area only tunes with APs. While I do not see it a superior product nowadays anymore, at the time it was the only way.

The closest I have come to having what you want is being able to have the PA hooked up at one terminal; the carpc at another terminal of the Y cable that is fitted into the OBD-2. Realistically you never have to switch the map - the turbo Subarus do not have the ability to save fuel that much based on the tune.

You may flash it if you go on long highway trips but I tell you, a great tune makes up for any fuel improvements that you may get by flashing an economy map. As a matter of fact I get better fuel economy with my protune than with the Cobb OTS economy map. And definitely enough power. Same map. Realistically when am I gonna need the "fuel economy map" ? I will soon hike to Minneapolis - yes that will be a time to use it. But in my humble experience it ain't worth it.

If you want a fuel economy button really just hit your cruise control every time every where. You will never be able to get the most out of the AVCS in terms of timing compared to the cruise control.

Now being able to display a few parameters on your monitor - that would be useful.

[camber]

Realtime/Ram tuning is in the future but no the new cable will not implemet this.

Rats...

Warranty covers the AP unit and you can also flash back to the original stock map unlike the first AP.

That's good to know.

Is realtime tuning that much of a benefit to a tuner?

I will eventually be going for a mild turbo upgrade(ie AVO 380-420 ish) with associated parts. IIRC, the APV2 flashes the ECU much faster now.

[Infamous1]

Is realtime tuning that much of a benefit to a tuner?

I will eventually be going for a mild turbo upgrade(ie AVO 380-420 ish) with associated parts. IIRC, the APV2 flashes the ECU much faster now.
It is much faster to dial in a tune with realtime capability, however if there is a flat rate you will be fine. I can usually dial in a stock turbo tune within my laptop's battery life so just over an hour. Realtime would cut this down quite a bit and is great for a vehicle in which you have no base map to begin with.

[Boostjunkie]

Realtime tuning is awesome. The biggest benefit for me is dialing in the MAF curve. It is so much quicker, easier and more precise when you can instantly see the fuel trim changes that results from your changes to the curve. The graphing in Protuner for MAF curves is also so much nicer than OS as you can see the whole curve in much greater detail. After you stare at them long enough you can see the little bumps and deviations that actually impact AFR.

Subaru flashes take forever on the 32 bit ECU's. I really don't mind OS on the 16 bit ECU's and on Evo's because the flashes are super quick (less than 30 seconds depending on how much many parameter you changed), but for the 32 bit Subarus waiting around and then having to restart the car and wait for the post start enrichment to decay gets annoying. It's not the end of the world and it's awesome software especially since it is free, but I definitely prefer using the AP as an interface. Being able to make quick back to back runs also allows you to tune a heatsoaked car with thermal conditions like it will encounter on the street. That's a nice little bonus that can help to make for a safer more consistent car.

[NSFW]

So... With a new Tactrix Openport cable susposedly coming in June for CANbus cars. Do you think it would better to get tactrix cable or AP V2?

Does anyone know if the new Tactrix Openport 2.0 now support real time tuning/maps?


There is no timeline for live tuning with open source tools. It doesn't appear that anyone is really working on it now, so I'm guessing it's going to be a while. That's pure speculation on my part, but I have been keeping an eye on the relevant forums and I have no reason to think it's coming soon.

It will also take some time before definitions are available for all of the ROM images from the CANBus cars. However I get the impression that merchgod et al are working on this already, so I'm optimistic about the timeframe for that stuff. (On the other hand I haven't been following that stuff closely because it doesn't affect me personally.)

If you want to tune yourself, you need to add $200 to the cost of the APV2 for the tuning software. If you plan to pay for your tuning, then you only need the AP (and of course, money for the tuner person).

I went the Tactrix / open source route because I want to do this myself (at least some of it) but otherwise I'd probably just get an AP.

[whobaru]

\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ <------- To harman.khinda

[harman.khinda]

What the **** is that? zig-zag, huh?

[whobaru]

It's pointing to my sig