Cobb AP Questions?

[BMac1203]

First off, I searched and do not know much on this topic. Second, I do not mean to offend any vendors or users.

I'm assuming that Cobb AP's must have to leave something installed in your car to work? If not, what would keep us from all just paying someone to re-flash our ECU's for us? (Such as sending them to Cobb, it's gotta be cheaper than purchasing the flashing unit).

Like I said, I don't know much on this topic yet, and I am not looking for answers such as "Buy Your Own". I have a job, but not the $$ to throw down on these types of mods.

[MiniStiGuy]

inorder to use the AP you must marry (attach it) to your car...

To attach it to another vehicle it must first be unmarried (un-attached) from your car which will reflash your ecu to a stock map (if my understanding is correct that is).

[BMac1203]

Thanks so much! I figured there must be something that must be permanently installed (or until removal).

[gianspi]

BMac,

I was thinking about this for awhile too. Cobb could of made the AP possible to flash the ECU without being dependant to a specific car. I would glady pay $100-$150 for a stage 1 flash, but $695 is out of my range at this time. Unfortuantely, I believe in the interested of money, Cobb makes you buy the entire unit if you want to reflash the ecu.

I've looked at other solutions also....Rallitek seems to have a nice ECU Tuner, but it is even more expensive at $999. Open source tuning sounds great, but I'm worried a small programming error would leave me stranded, and I can't yell at the entire community for it :-/

[BMac1203]

I agree. For some reason it just makes sense to not make us buy the unit. I mean obviously it makes sense for the big guys, more profit for them. Again, not to anger anyone, but I feel like $695 to flash my ECU possibly only once is a lot of money. It would be great if there were "Certified Locations" or something of the like, so that we could all take our cars to these places and get the flash we want. For instance, if a shop owned the AP, we would pay for the TDC or Cobb map of our choice (like we do already), instead of buying the entire unit. Is this so impossible?

Again, I mean no offense to vendors and others, I just feel that my idea is rational. I used to own a Civic, and we could ship our ECU's somewhere to have a flashed chip soldered in for much less than this. And, if we wanted to flash them ourselves, we could have a port soldered in as well to allow to do something like the AP, for about the same price.

[SUBBROS]

Im not fully aware of the tuning world yet, but I slowly getting there. Just like in gaming systems, profits are not made in the hardware, but the software. The physical AP is nothing much imo, and Im sure they dont make much off of that, but simply require you to buy it to secure their products. The real product is the tuning.

If a tuner charges around 700 for a set of tunes, it does invite people to hack them and keeps other people from purchasing them. Sell it for around 100-200, its not worth people to hack them, and its more readibly accessible to more people.

Are these maps that complicated? Theyre basically based on stock maps. And unless youre going to be overtly aggressive on your tuning, you probably wont blow your engine or strand yourself if you know some basics on tuning.

Tuning isnt for the newb, Im still learning and Im grateful for people around me to fill me in. But its also not rocket science.

I dont know, this topic is very much open to discussion. I just offer my opinions.

[BMac1203]

I agree with everything said entirely. But, the market isn't growing much. My 97 Civic had this type of tuning back then...in 1997. I know that things have changed, but companies like Skunk2, Mugen, etc. have been doing these maps for a long time. I guess I'm just wondering why this couldn't be done at a shop? For instance, if I take my car somewhere to get flashed for $100-200, I don't own anything. Without owning the hardware to extract the map, I can't sell it, edit it, hack it, etc. This keeps the vendor safe, because they can sell something that is seemingly simple, but can't be abused for free.

Like I said, just open for discussion. My only qualms are that this has been done for almost 10 years now, maybe more. Guys used to flash their own ROMs to Honda ECU's way back in the day, and they'd do it for less than $100. Granted, it was the same situation that we're in here, it was a guy on the forum that everyone trusted sending their ECU's out to. I'm not trying to bypass Cobb & TDC on sales, I just can't justify ~$700 for a flash that I might only do once. If it were more affordable, the market size would grow as well. Just my .02.

[SUBBROS]

Hey man, youre preaching to the choir. But I actually have an AP. Bought it when I could afford it. You suggest an interesting solution, but the only problem is that it really limits the reach of these tuners if everyone has to go to a shop to tune.

My grip would be knowing the truth. Like how much these maps really cost. And why they arent more compatible with other years or cars. They could make them that way, especially since these maps are tiny, like less than 1mb.

You figure thats why Cobb came out with v2 that has more features to maybe justify the price while openecu'ers are becoming better and more credible.

But on one hand, I feel bad, because the automotive business is too cut throat and companies need to make money when they can. You make a great product, someone's gonna come in with cheaper products to take market shares away. Thank China for our lowered prices, though LGTers still pay premium prices compared to wrxers.

[BMac1203]

No man, I completely understand. I'm not out to undermine anyone, but I'm entering the business and manufacturing world, and I'm starting to get a good grip on manufacturing costs vs. sales costs.

I'm just saying that back in my Honda days (we all went through it, well most), you could do this for chump change. I threw in a Crower Stg 2 Strip Cam in my Civic, had a guy solder in a Skunk2 flashed ROM chip, and boom. For less than the AP I had a beefier cam, as well as no speed governor, higher redline, and new fuel maps. I understand what the AP does, and it's pluses and minuses, don't get me wrong.

I just know that there's quite a few "respected" shops all around the US, most within hours of the larger "tuner" areas. If these shops owned the AP's and we got a "package tune" with them, the shop and Cobb (etc.) would make money. So Cobb would profit from the sale (or rental) of their flashing units & maps, and maybe the shop makes money on them requiring you to spend an hour on their dyno.

Like I said, I'm not trying to undercut anyone. I just know that it doesn't cost $695 to produce the unit and maps. It may have been expensive at first, but now the maps are just a > 1mb piece of software code. Just my .02

[Silverstar]

I think its pretty sweet the way the AP works. I don't have access to many tuners where I'm at, but for $650 I get maps for stock and aftermark DPs and the ability to tune over the internet. The AP is really a powerful tool. The hp it provides for the cost is really quite good.

If cost is your big thing, keep checking ebay and the member classifieds here. With the v2 out, there are gonna be alot of the v1s for sale.

[SUBBROS]

Hey BMac, I think we understand each other. Btw, what business you getting into? I work for my dad's exhaust warehouse so I see the disgusting nature of pricing from greedy manufacturers and why sometimes all members hurt in a price war.

Silverstar, I am not sure if you are understanding BMacs point. You dont need the physical AP for anything that a 5 dollar cable could do with free software. And you could probably find those AP maps online somewhere.

Im sure tuners know all about this.

[BMac1203]

Edit: SUBBROS, you and I are definetely in agreement. I am entering the electronics market, specifically home theater electronics. I am working on developing a product that will cost me about $600 to make, and my "mentors" (persay) are suggesting that I attempt to retail it for $2000+. Granted eventually I will have to pay for advertising, distribution, licensing, etc.

About the $5 cable idea. Just searching around the net I found most all of the maps for our cars. The only thing limiting me from using them is a $700 piece of hardware and my own conscience. I am in no position to use these maps, as I did not purchase them myself. My predicament is that if I only plan to flash my car once, why pay $700? SUBBROS gets it. It's not about the money, it's about the idea of what you're buying. I would be more than happy to pay $200 to buy a custom map for my car, but I have no use for the hardware that comes with it. Why can't there be more options for guys on a budget? There is for other cars...


Silverstar, not what I meant. Like I said, I'm not downing the product or its users. I'm just saying that I feel as if the bulk of the justification for the price is that you own the hardware. But, if you're not going to tune often, owning the hardware is useless. I would just love to see a place where I can mail my ECU and get it reflashed for wayyyy cheaper. I don't understand why tuning our cars has to be so difficult and expensive, when it can be so cheap for other cars.

Before someone attacks me for that...For instance, I also used to own a Apexi VAFC II. Purchased it used for about $180, got my car dyno tuned for about $80, and gained quite a bit of HP. Granted, it really only messes with Air/Fuel, but its the same idea. I think the AP is great product and a great idea, but a very expensive solution. But, I am in no way discounting Cobb for their efforts and great products, I just wish it were available to larger crowd. I don't want to settle for a used V1, when the V2 is out. I'm saying that I don't think I should have to own a $700 piece of hardware to flash my chip...

[2005garnetGT]

then maybe openecu is what you are looking for.

enginuity.org
tactrix.com
osecuroms.org
openecu.org

[biz77]

Coming from the VW World, prior to my STi, I'd say the AP is pretty reasonable for what it is and what it does. APR is still a popular choice for tuning VW's today: http://www.goapr.com/VW/products/ecu_upgrade_mkvgti.html and a fully optioned off the shelf tune from them is over $1,000! And it doesn't even offer as much capability or even a piece of tangible hardware to play with like the AP. I don't see Honda's as any better: http://www.hondata.com/reflash_tsx_06.html. $600 for a reflash on a naturaly aspirated car????

Regarding OpenECU, plenty of people will start dabbling and before you know it there will be plenty of publicly available maps. Of course you need a computer to harness this technology and last time I checked a decent laptop was... about $700:)

[2005garnetGT]

theres a guy who was flashing his evo with his desktop...

he had a 50' usb extension for his tactrix cable.

he even datalogged it by putting the whole PC with CRT monitor IN HIS EVO!

[biz77]

Silverstar, I am not sure if you are understanding BMacs point. You dont need the physical AP for anything that a 5 dollar cable could do with free software. And you could probably find those AP maps online somewhere.

Im sure tuners know all about this.

WRONG! Cobb is the only device to allow you to run realtime maps without re-flashing your ECU each time you want to change maps. Tuning on your PC means creating a map, flashing it and trying it out. If it needs tweaking, then you must flash it again. What if you want to run race gas at the track sometimes? How about if your run methanol and you run out and need to switch maps on the fly? Should you carry your laptop at all times? Remember Subaru ECUs are quoted as having ~ 100 flash limit before they are rendered inoperable.

Don't get me wrong, I think the OpenECU solution is great for the person who wants to set it and forget it and live with one map, but don't give the impression that a OBDII cable and a laptop makes up for what an AP can do, which is change ECU parameters without re-flashing.

[biz77]

theres a guy who was flashing his evo with his desktop...

he had a 50' usb extension for his tactrix cable.

he even datalogged it by putting the whole PC with CRT monitor IN HIS EVO!

That is pretty damn ghetto and that PC still cost him more than just the price of an OBDII cable. He would look a bit silly driving around with that in his passenger seat all the time, don't you think?

[BMac1203]

2005garnetGT, thanks, interesting.

biz77 - I'm not arguing, I'm just talking. Hondata is similar, but completely different as well. I'm comparing reflashes. Hondata was a popular choice in HEAVILY modified Hondas, as well as Drag cars and SCCA Competition cars. Coming from the Honda Community myself....no one used it, too expensive. I'm saying that IF I only want to flash my ECU once, $700 is a lot of money. Like I said earlier, I understand the capabilities and great list of benefits of the AP. I am not dissing the product or the company. I'm strictly talking about reflashes and their costs. A Stg 1 reflash isn't your car/my car specific. It works on both of our cars, no different (except for state/octane & transmission). We used to chip our ECU's all over the place in the Honda Community. These chips were very similar (Skunk2 stg 1, Mugen, etc.) These chips accomplished the same goal, but cheaper. I understand that they didn't give us "something to play with" like the AP does, but that's not what I meant. Maybe SUBBROS is the only one who gets me...lol

Im just talking guys. relax.

[BMac1203]

Dude, we're not arguing here. You're talking about ease-of-use and "looking silly". I'm talking about function, not fashion. Also, I'm pretty sure that most people own computers today....so no point there (if you don't own one, your friend does).

That is pretty damn ghetto and that PC still cost him more than just the price of an OBDII cable. He would look a bit silly driving around with that in his passenger seat all the time, don't you think?

[2005garnetGT]

WRONG! Cobb is the only device to allow you to run realtime maps without re-flashing your ECU each time you want to change maps.

enginuity will have realtime tuning for 16bit WRXes in the next release. 32bit support for us is coming right after that

Remember Subaru ECUs are quoted as having ~ 100 flash limit before they are rendered inoperable.

thats a flash MINIMUM limit. Typical embedded flash life is 10-100x that.

Don't get me wrong, I think the OpenECU solution is great for the person who wants to set it and forget it and live with one map, but don't give the impression that a OBDII cable and a laptop makes up for what an AP can do, which is change ECU parameters without re-flashing.
actually, its pretty much exactly the opposite.
what tuning are you gonna do yourself on an AP? none....
thats set it and forget it, IMO.

[SUBBROS]

BMac, there's a saying that we two form a multitude. I get you, that's all that matters. Unfortunately forums arent always the best way to get specifics out of the way. I appreciate AP, I bought one, but do I think its outrageous in price? I am thinking so, but Im not looking at their profit margins.

Yeah you have your choice of 6 maps to choose from, stage 1-3 and 91 or 93 oct. Not exactly customizable or useful in similiar situations biz talked about. And if I ever flash my ecu 100 times, someone please tell me to get a life. Just see the benefits of openecu since I plan on completing my sti swap after I find the right turbo.

Anyways, I think Im done with this thread. BMac, good luck and good hearing from you. Let me know when your product comes out!

[BMac1203]

Thanks for everything. If anyone comes out with a product that is 1/6 the price and does the same thing (aka flashes the ecu), I'll be first in line.

[MiniStiGuy]

Ok Myself having a pretty damn modified hatch and my LGT and have owned many other honda's/acura's I believe I should open my mouth here and kind of put some sort of Truth of the matter here.

The first point that I would like to point out is that yes you can chip many different makes of cars but you must ask yourself this... chipping them is risky considering your actually sauldering onto your board. Chipping also does not allow you the option to upgrade or downgrade at any given point. The price is cheap but with minimal to no expandability.

2nd point I want to make is in regards to the Hondata units of which I have owned 2. Now as it was stated earlier in this topic that hondata IS NOT used much for the honda scene. I beg to differ on this matter in and say that it is not used often for the unexperienced low-power producing vehicles and owner's because they do not reach a potential for its use. If you have a fully built motor or maybe you go to FI then this is a highly needed and useful tool to ensure proper specifications are taking place.

3rd thing I'd like to discuss is the actual price that is mostly the one complaint or aggrivation that I'm sure you all feel towards the AP. Now first in the design of an AP you have many countless hours of studying and learning the language inwhich the vehicle codes. After learning the language can you then devise a plan to modify that code. The main thing to remember before modifying is that you must know the vehicle and how it will react to your modifications which brings us to testing which also takes time. After testing we go into the finishing stages of refining the code and adjusting any last minute lines that may need adjustment. Finally we go into production of the code into a distributable format. Now without a unit to incorporate this code through we have a useless file so we must design a unit that may suffice enough to ensure proper integration. The unit must have the ability to not only interact with us the consumer's but with the vehicle in as flawless of a way as possible.

Ok now after all of that Time which if we were to put it into math terms would be:

Time = $$$ ... now considering all of the time in research, development, marketing, deployment, and support that has been taken to ensure this poducts success I would say that the price we are asked to pay is well worth the overall feature's and expandability that is available to us.

[biz77]

actually, its pretty much exactly the opposite.
what tuning are you gonna do yourself on an AP? none....
thats set it and forget it, IMO.


What would you like to do? StreetTuner software is at your disposal, albeit at an additional charge.
I've already stated two things about the OpenECU software. First, it could be a great solution for those that want a single tune and forget about it. Second, it should offer a nice alternative to the Cobb and ecuTEK products once people start making maps available; again perhaps for free or perhaps for a small charge. I don't feel the OpenECU solution is a replacement for an AccessPORT, like some have made it seem.

[BMac1203]

Guys, I'm not arguing, just talking out loud. You affirmed my claim, rather than denied it. I said that only the owners of highly modified cars use Hondata (am I wrong? NO). And not have extreme amounts of power, does not make an owner "unexperienced". I am an AutoX'er, my Civic served me well, did it not making 100,000,000 HP make me unexperienced? No. Hondata doesn't serve MOST tuners. That was my point. Also, I did not do the soldering, an experienced Electrical Engineer did, and had done hundreds. Did mine go bad? Nope. Worked perfect. And cheap.

I beg to differ on this matter in and say that it is not used often for the unexperienced low-power producing vehicles and owner's because they do not reach a potential for its use. If you have a fully built motor or maybe you go to FI then this is a highly needed and useful tool to ensure proper specifications are taking place.

Edit: And lastly. I NEVER said it was a waste of money, nor did I ever say it didn't do its job. You guys are attacking statements that aren't even meant to be taken as so. I understand that time, effort, research, all costs money. I'm not stupid, I'm an engineer myself. Does it cost THAT much money, nope, it's mark-up. Do they need to do this in order to create profit? Yes. Is the product worth it? Yes. Could the same thing be done for cheaper? Yes. Do I need to flash my ECU once a week? Nope. Do I need an AP? Nope. That's all...

[MiniStiGuy]

I'm not trying to bring you down BMAC. Think of it as going to work everyday.... you wouldn't go work for free would you? I feel that the time, effort, energy, and utter brain power and biggest of all the TIME and financial burdens that are put into these units is well worth the cost. That is just my opinion and I know it wont be seen that way by many other's but thats how I see and feel about it.

[MiniStiGuy]

I love my AP v2.0 :)

[BMac1203]

StiGuy, I understand, just want the other users to know that I'm just blabbering, not trying to cause tension. I guess I just liked how with my other cars things were affordable, and with this car, they're approx. 4x what I spent on similar parts. Just wish it wasn't that way.

[BMac1203]

I know that the AP is completely worth it. But for the guys who might only want to flash to Stg 1 maybe once, $700 is a lot. I understand the features and convenience and tuning and all that, but it's still a lot of money for a silly fuel map (& others). That's my point, no harm to the company or other users. I'm just used to doing the same thing for cheaper, that's all. I guess I just need to get another job.......lol......maybe 2 more jobs...

[gianspi]

Bmac, I agree. I think the other posters are looking at the AP for everything it does, and if you do, it's a great deal. But like you said, it's not a great deal if you flash your ECU once and your done with it.

I'm looking into OpenECU right now, which seems to look like free software + $100 cable + $25 map, which is a really nice thing to hear. Unfortunately, I can't find any definitive "Howto" guides to educate me on this. I guess only time will tell :)

[rabydanimal]

First off, I searched and do not know much on this topic. Second, I do not mean to offend any vendors or users.

I'm assuming that Cobb AP's must have to leave something installed in your car to work? If not, what would keep us from all just paying someone to re-flash our ECU's for us? (Such as sending them to Cobb, it's gotta be cheaper than purchasing the flashing unit).

Like I said, I don't know much on this topic yet, and I am not looking for answers such as "Buy Your Own". I have a job, but not the $$ to throw down on these types of mods.

You aren't paying for the device to flash your car, the AP probably costs 5 bucks to make. You're paying for Cobb's R&D. If they had a program where you could bring your ECU to a Cobb approved flash place it would still cost you $700. Of course it's expensive, Cobb can charge what ever the hell they want too. They have kids to put through college too. For an easy ready to go solution It's the best $700 you'll ever spend on your car.

Quit'cha bitch'n and spend the bling! :)

P.S. Flash once? I don't think you're aware how far the rabbit hole goes. You'll be running Stg1 for a week before the lust for more power consumes you.

[MiniStiGuy]

<<< consumed by the urge for more

[BMac1203]

That's exactly what I meant. I'm not looking at features, I'm looking at the "set it and forget it" factor that another user mentioned.

Hah, and yes, Ive been down the rabbit hole with 2 other cars, I'm trying not to go there with this one. Like I said, I'm not trying to rip anyone off. I know the R&D was expensive, always is, but they're going to break even sometime. Like I said way back, I guess I'm just used to back in the Honda days where we'd do this for like sub $200. I guess our solutions were more like openecu, but had the same features of AP. It's all good though, I guess it's time for me to start saving.


Bmac, I agree. I think the other posters are looking at the AP for everything it does, and if you do, it's a great deal. But like you said, it's not a great deal if you flash your ECU once and your done with it.

I'm looking into OpenECU right now, which seems to look like free software + $100 cable + $25 map, which is a really nice thing to hear. Unfortunately, I can't find any definitive "Howto" guides to educate me on this. I guess only time will tell :)

[Prime Power]

First off I do plan on getting the AP once my warranty is up plus I am curious how they are going to work the SI drive. But I have a Chevy Avalanche and have a custom tune on it that ran me $176 and it runs great. I do think it is overpriced. I mean your standard predator and hypertech tuners are around $400 or less.

[BMac1203]

Prime, I agree with you. Users are probably going to attack the "overpriced" comment though. Seems that everyone is saying "you get sooo much for the price", but your and my point is that we're looking for a simpler cheaper solution. A simple ECU flash isn't $700. But the features that come with it are. I guess we're just looking for stripped down versions. I just want Stg1, that's it, no extra features, just a Stg1 flash, and $700 is too much.

First off I do plan on getting the AP once my warranty is up plus I am curious how they are going to work the SI drive. But I have a Chevy Avalanche and have a custom tune on it that ran me $176 and it runs great. I do think it is overpriced. I mean your standard predator and hypertech tuners are around $400 or less.

[Prime Power]

Agreed, once more research is done on the 07's, I will upgrade the DP and maybe the UP if needed. That is it, I just want a tune for that.

[rabydanimal]

I believe the '07 already has a catless U/P?

[Prime Power]

Thats what I heard, so I wonder how much of a gain you would get by upgrading?

[OutofSight84]

the AP is one of the few mods you can actually sell when youre done with the car and still get the majority of what you paid back on it (here, ebay, etc.). In the whole scheme of things its the best investment you can make for your subie.

[BMac1203]

Thanks, I know, not arguing the resale value.

[rabydanimal]

Thats what I heard, so I wonder how much of a gain you would get by upgrading?

I would imagine not much. The difference between a gutted 05/'06 stocker and and aftermarket U/P is negligible.

[TPLGT]

ibtl

[Prime Power]

I would imagine not much. The difference between a gutted 05/'06 stocker and and aftermarket U/P is negligible.


Good to hear it. That way I don't waste my money on it. So to go stage II, all I need is a DP and the maps, correct?

[Jagger82]

I have one question to ask everyone that thinks it costs too much... have you done the math? the expected gains from just plugging the unit in and flashing are 40hp and over 50tq, 700$ 50tq this is the cheapest tq you can buy, 14$ per lb of tq is all that needs to be said. if you can buy power that cheap anywhere else do it and quite crying, I don't mean to be rude but I just took the plunge myself , I hope I get my ap unit within a week. doesn't anyone agree?

[Prime Power]

My point is that you can get that much with different types of cars for cheaper, how come then for a Subaru you must spend that much? On a turbo diesel truck you can gain way more for way less price. For those of us that just want a custom tune and not all the other abilities, there should be an alternative. Like for my truck, I sent a guy my pcm, he programmed and I was set to go, for about $176. Great value.

[BMac1203]

My point is that you can get that much with different types of cars for cheaper, how come then for a Subaru you must spend that much? On a turbo diesel truck you can gain way more for way less price. For those of us that just want a custom tune and not all the other abilities, there should be an alternative. Like for my truck, I sent a guy my pcm, he programmed and I was set to go, for about $176. Great value.

Hmmm...still no one gets what's being said. I agree, though, Prime. The original argument has NOTHING to do with features, resale value, value, $/hp, it's to do with the cost comparison to parts for other cars. All we are saying is that if you buy a Honda/Acura per se, you could get a complete custom ECU for around $200. That's all.

[Chris Godawski]

You guys seem to know your *ish, so let me ask you: is the AP worth buying if you don't have a turbo back exhaust? I searched for a thread on this but didn't find... How effective is the tuner on damn near stock (borla cat back, intake soon)? I don't want to void my warranty so I am being stingy until the 5 years (had the car for 2 years and i'm at 17K so time will expire first).

[Infamous1]

If you are worried about warranty stay stock. But FWIW an AP is great if you are stock all way up to a high HP monster. It basically is a gateway to tuning your ECM.

[rabydanimal]

Skip the intake (not worth it) and go Cobb Stage 1 with the AP. You'll be amazed at the power increase... for a little while. Then you'll have to go stage II. If you want the intake "sound" get the AVO panel filter. You'll even here the ricer pppsssshhh of the recirc valve. :)

[LEGA-C-YA]

COBB posted some great insight into how difficult it is to crack a million lines of progamming to understand the parameters being controlled on a turbo engine. The R&D costs are huge and the cost of the AccessPort reflects it. The HP and Torque gains for the $ are a bargain

[MiniStiGuy]

think of it this way......

First Protune ~$500 bucks (Can't just revert to stock and no boost gauge readout, timing, or anything that the AP gives)

AP ~$700 (all readouts and possibility to return to stock at any time)

Price is good for what it is and can do for you.

[Prime Power]

Again though, how come I can get a custom tune on my avalanche for $170 and it is so much for a subaru. Is it because there is not the demand that there is for a subaru one. Is it a different system. I mean, the can system is not subaru specific. Ford has had it for a while on some of there heavy duty trucks. On my avalanche I just ordered a new pcm with a custom tune on it. Told him my mods and he did it. I could go to stock by simply switching the pcm back. Wish I could do this on the subaru.

[2005garnetGT]

COBB posted some great insight into how difficult it is to crack a million lines of progamming to understand the parameters being controlled on a turbo engine. The R&D costs are huge and the cost of the AccessPort reflects it. The HP and Torque gains for the $ are a bargain

and isn't it amazing one guy by himself figured out how to do the same exact thing during his free time?

openecu.org

[MiniStiGuy]

Again though, how come I can get a custom tune on my avalanche for $170 and it is so much for a subaru. Is it because there is not the demand that there is for a subaru one. Is it a different system. I mean, the can system is not subaru specific. Ford has had it for a while on some of there heavy duty trucks. On my avalanche I just ordered a new pcm with a custom tune on it. Told him my mods and he did it. I could go to stock by simply switching the pcm back. Wish I could do this on the subaru.


Ok that seems like a decent price....

but now consider this....

Boost Gauge cost and install ~ 150-200+ dollars
Maf reading ~ can't get a gauge for that but the AP can read it off the ECU
WG duty cycle - Same thing as the maf..


basically i could list lots of stuff but take into effect the other feautres and readings that are available to you when compared to just a simple flashing unit such as the ones you use for your avalance or a VW chip etc...

Features, Readings, Overall experience with the AP to me seems like the overall better value.

[Chris Godawski]

Does anyone know where i can numbers on the improvement going from stock to the AP?

[MiniStiGuy]

cobbtuning.com they have maps

[rabydanimal]

and isn't it amazing one guy by himself figured out how to do the same exact thing during his free time?

openecu.org

openecu != AccessPort

Opensource is great for your PC, rarely does it screw anything up permanently. If it does, all you have to do is reload your OS.

For your car is quite a different story. I do not trust open source maps running on my car that some guy on the internet made and tells me are safe. To use these tools safely and successfully you need to have a great knowledge of tuning. Even then you do not have the visibility in to the ECU that commercially developed options give you. I'd rather not risk causing thousands of dollars of damage for which I have no recourse for getting fixed by those responsible.

Yes the AP is expensive. Overpriced? Probably. Worth it? For me, unfortunately yes.

[Prime Power]

All those readings you mentioned above I have plus many, many more on my pc based scantool device that works for all makes and models with can or obd-II equipped and I believe I paid around $200.

[Eblues70]

Just recently installed Cobb APv2 on my 06 LGT, I could feel the difference right away. Yes, the 695 price tag is expensive, but how much is a new engine or turbo. Cobb backs their products. If you have access to a Cobb authorized tuner, then you can even define your map to a better degree. I am using a K&N intake, Cobb dp, and Greddy turboback exhaust. I have yet to get a dyno run, but will do so and post results.

[executor485]

All those readings you mentioned above I have plus many, many more on my pc based scantool device that works for all makes and models with can or obd-II equipped and I believe I paid around $200.
I've just read some of what your saying and I'll just re-enforce what others are saying.
1) The AP is very costly, but it does have a lot of things that other car tuning options do not have. The ability to switch maps unlimited times without harming the ECU, the ability to switch your map from a performance tune to a economy tune by the press of a button, the ability to monitor certian aspects of your engine - boost, etc... The ability to add more maps to it without having to reprogram your vehicle or buy a new chip, etc. Going back to completely stock in a relatively short amount of time so you can take it to the stealership. And many more things.
2) There are other options, but for the most part, you need to be pretty knowledgeable of what your doing. The Cobb AP makes it easy for anyone to just plug and play.
3) If you go straight to stage 2 (which can be done by buying the AP and gutting your UP and DP) it is a HUGE bang for your buck. There arent many other parts for your car that can add that much power with that amount of money. Yes, it could be done with a $200 chip or a more expensive pro-tune, but again... You have so many options and guarantees with the AP.

Its all what you want and need, but for 90% of the modders on here a COBB AP is the way to go. (taking a guess at that number though... lol)

[Prime Power]

I mean, I have a apv2 now. Just wish there was cheaper options. Thats all.

[executor485]

I hear ya... I wish there were cheaper options as well, but alas... We take what we are given. lol