View Full Version : Door speakers with maximum "woof"?
I am searching for the 6.5" speakers with the most capacity for bass - i.e. the most xmax - that can fit within our doors using the rings from iaperformance.com. Anyone got suggestions?
I think I might be satisfied with the stock stereo, if I just upgrade the speakers to make room for a little more bass. Never thought I'd say that (used to have two 12" subs, three amps etc, etc) but I definitely don't need more volume, I just want to feel the low end a little more. I figure if I get some good strong speakers in the stock locations I can probably be satisfied without adding a subwoofer. I might end up deciding to get a sub anyway, but I figure I should see how much bass I can get out of the stock 6.5 locations first.
I'm no audiophile and I'm not going to visit shops to A/B test speakers. The stock speakers sound good enough to my ears, so anything that doesn't suck worse will be just fine. (And I am familiar with the stock head unit's frequency response issue, and I can live with it.)
IAPerformance claims that their rings will speakers 2.9" deep, has anyone run into issues with anything smaller? (i.e. is their claim for real?)
Has anyone tried to fit a CDT M6, or MTX TXC6.1? I'm not likely to spend more than $200 per speaker, but I might if it's worth it.
Thanks!
MiniStiGuy
12-28-2006, 12:42 PM
I'm looking for the same thing as you are my friend.......
FishingFiend
12-28-2006, 04:15 PM
If I understand you correctly, you want more bass with the stock amp? You can marginally improve the bass with new speakers, but without additional power it's almost a wasted effort. Spend your time and money on dampening the doors and you'll get the improvement you're looking for.
As for the CDT M6, I have the Braxials installed and the bass it produces is crazy! You will have to use 1" of spacers to get the CDT's to fit. This requires 2 sets of IA spacers as each one is only good for .75".
I'm aware of the limitations of the stock amp, and I don't believe I am hitting them yet. If I turn it up, I get distorted bass with clean highs, which tells me that it's the speaker that is clipping, not the amp. I will be damping the doors when I swap speakers, for sure.
Did you have any trouble getting the door panels to fit correctly with the extra spacers installed? Did you have any trouble with the window hitting the speaker, or rattling against it when the window is down?
Thanks!
FishingFiend
12-28-2006, 09:49 PM
The search for awesome midbass has allowed me the good fortune of experiencing all the issues you described.
The window hitting the speaker magnet is how I know a 1" spacer is needed.
If you order the IA spacers, they include 1/2 pin extenders for the door. This helped, but with my braxials, it's not enough. The tweeter is pushing up on the door panel. I have not fixed this yet.
Rattling, now that's a sore spot. After seriously dampening the doors, it's my door panels/switches that rattle now. So much so, that I've turned up my crossover to reduce the noise until I get it fixed. I've ordered more dampening material and acoustic foam to try and resolve this. Anything in your door pockets will rattle too.
The main issue is the part of the handle that needs to be removed to access the 2 screws. After forcing this piece it's become loose and rattles over time. I also believe that because the tweeter is touching the door panel (in my case), extra energy is being transfered to the doors. I'm thinking about moving away from the braxials and back to focal...
NickB34
12-29-2006, 05:22 AM
I had the problem with my infinity perfects hitting the door and rattling like crazy. This was fixed with the extenders that are provided with the iaperformance kit, but I was also told that I could shave down the interior door panel to prevent it from touching. Sound dampening will be your very best friend, it even made my stock speakers sound decent. The infinitys have amazing mid-bass, all the way down to 75 Hz range that they are rated for (would be good going lower than that, but that's where the crossover cuts it off).
GTS Jeff
12-29-2006, 06:09 PM
OEM sub will give you exactly what you're looking for with less headaches.
I've given that some thought, but if it doesn't satisfy me then the money was wasted. But if I upgrade the stock speakers and decide to get an amp later, nothing is wasted. Plus that leaves me with one less place to put a carputer.
GTS Jeff
12-30-2006, 03:46 AM
Ok, but the OEM sub will put out more bass than any full range door speaker ever will.
FishingFiend
12-30-2006, 12:49 PM
Ok, but the OEM sub will put out more bass than any full range door speaker ever will.
Bold statement... You're not trying hard enough.
GTS Jeff
12-30-2006, 07:24 PM
Bold statement... You're not trying hard enough.Well, you're sort of hitting my point. Why do things the hard way? It seems silly to try to get more SPL out of an IB setup than an enclosed sub. :icon_conf
How about four IB subs vs. one enclosed? :)
Seems like a close race, actually. Four subs could yield an extra 6db vs one speaker. Give that we're dealing with 6.5" speakers, an enclosure could make that up in the 40hz range, which is what I want to augment.
And the door speakers will be limited by the head unit's amplifier, whereas the OEM sub has its own amp...
Boulderguy
12-31-2006, 05:21 PM
So you've obviously put some thought into this & aren't new at car audio. A couple problems with your approach tho -
If I turn it up, I get distorted bass with clean highs, which tells me that it's the speaker that is clipping, not the amp.
Nope, that's your amp clipping. Not enough juice. The best speakers on the planet will have the same problem.
You mentioned wanting to augment 40hz. Problem is the signal from the HU is down a good 6db at 40 hz.
You'd get better results from the OEM sub. It won't do much below 50 hz other than some harmonics but it'll do better than any door speaker - Jeff's right.
If you truly want to upgrade the doors you've got a max of 3" depth before you're hitting the window with the magnet. Going custom will open that up but that's a different ballgame.
Boulderguy
12-31-2006, 05:23 PM
Plus with that much spacer involved you'll have Xmax issues too. They're solvable tho.
EnvoyEd
12-31-2006, 06:26 PM
Remember the OEM sub has it's own amp enclosed. I was extremely satisfied with it's results. Just also remember to tweak the sub's adjustments to your sound requirements.
Ed in Philly
stock sub was enough to get my side mirrors to vibrate. that said, four MBQuart Premium 6.5" midbasses, 100wx4 of clean power, plexi trim rings sealed with dumbgum and a metric shit ton of dynamat will get you what you are looking for.
Thanks Patagonian. BTW, do you own a conure? You nick had me wondering.
But r.e. the OEM sub...
I might end up deciding to get a sub anyway, but I figure I should see how much bass I can get out of the stock 6.5 locations first.
(hint, hint... :) )
GTS Jeff
01-01-2007, 03:54 AM
Thanks Patagonian. BTW, do you own a conure? You nick had me wondering.
But r.e. the OEM sub...
(hint, hint... :) )
I guess if you insist...then here's what you need:
4 good IB subs...I've not too much experience with this, but I've heard that CDT M6 are good for the job - I'm sure those will be a bit of work to fit. Then to power those, you need a bunch of juice. PG Xenon 100.4 is probably good. :icon_cool Then to hook that shit up, you'll need a bunch of LOCs. From there, you are still left with dealing with factory equalization which sucks the bass out of high volumes. Time for Cleansweep! All that amounts to well over a grand - and the OEM sub costs what....$150? To each their own I guess!
I guess if you insist...then here's what you need:
4 good IB subs...I've not too much experience with this, but I've heard that CDT M6 are good for the job - I'm sure those will be a bit of work to fit. Then to power those, you need a bunch of juice. PG Xenon 100.4 is probably good. :icon_cool Then to hook that shit up, you'll need a bunch of LOCs. From there, you are still left with dealing with factory equalization which sucks the bass out of high volumes. Time for Cleansweep! All that amounts to well over a grand - and the OEM sub costs what....$150? To each their own I guess!
If I recall correctly, the oem sub gets its signals from the rear speaker outputs, thus is subject to the factory head unit's frequency response quirks. The 40-60 range is only off by a couple db, and is actually boosted above the baseline at low volume levels, so I doubt I'll be getting a Cleansweep. It's a great idea, but I'm not the target market.
Currently busy comparing figures for CDT M6, MBQ Premium, and Focal Audiom 6W, etc, etc. I think I'd be most happy with the CDTs if they'll fit without major issues, but I'm not sure if that's possible.
Thanks Patagonian. BTW, do you own a conure? You nick had me wondering.
que que??
Never mind. :) http://www.google.com/search?q=patagonian+conure
oh....'Patagonian' refers to many things, not just a bird.
miles
01-02-2007, 04:42 PM
Remember the OEM sub has it's own amp enclosed. I was extremely satisfied with it's results. Just also remember to tweak the sub's adjustments to your sound requirements.
Ed in Philly
+1
hal9e3
06-29-2007, 05:26 PM
If I recall correctly, the oem sub gets its signals from the rear speaker outputs, thus is subject to the factory head unit's frequency response quirks. The 40-60 range is only off by a couple db...
Can someone confirm and elaborate on this? It sounds like the OEM sub gets a full-range speaker-level signal and amplifies it.
that's exactly right. the OEM sub has it's own internal crossover, but the input is full range and speaker level off the rear channels.
hal9e3
06-30-2007, 06:57 PM
Back on track, MB Quart QSD216s. Unbelievable! They don't have real deep bass but the bass they do have - wow! I used to take the speaker covers off my old GS-R just to marvel at their incredible travel. One caveat tho - they're VERY inefficient. 150-200W/ch MINIMUM required. These may be discontinued as I see this place (http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=12145) blowing them out.
Q's are nice. I have had several sets of the step below Premium series...basically the first gen Q's relabeled after the current Q's were released.
hal9e3
07-03-2007, 10:46 PM
that's exactly right. the OEM sub has it's own internal crossover, but the input is full range and speaker level off the rear channels.
Wait a sec, the significance of this just hit me. So if I adjust the fr/rr fade I'm changing the bass level too?
OhBe1
07-04-2007, 05:50 AM
Inquiring minds want to know...
Wait a sec, the significance of this just hit me. So if I adjust the fr/rr fade I'm changing the bass level too?
if you fade forward, less bass all the way to no bass. In the middle F/R or to the rear and you have full bass. Not ideal at all....you'd be better to rewire the sub input off the front channels.
bjmsdrum00
07-16-2007, 04:11 PM
that's exactly right. the OEM sub has it's own internal crossover, but the input is full range and speaker level off the rear channels.
i remember reading on here that the factory sub has its own output from the HU? i remember because i was asking how to hook up an amp to the factory HU and someone suggested getting a high-low level converter and hooking it up to the spot where the factory sub gets it signal (i have no factory sub, but i believe that the signal is still there)
correct me if i'm wrong
the sub harness is a t-harness the plugs into the factory harness (and then the radio). 100% it's getting signal off the rear feed, not a dedicated one.
Mr. T
07-29-2007, 07:46 PM
2 questions:
1. Can you adjust the OEM sub and if so, how?
2. If I install some new speakers wiht a 2 inch depth in the doors, do I have to use some sort of spacer to keep from losing the bass?
Thanks,
mwiener2
07-29-2007, 08:10 PM
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18224473.700-speakers-with-more-woof.html
Mr. T
07-30-2007, 09:56 PM
2 questions:
1. Can you adjust the OEM sub and if so, how?
2. If I install some new speakers wiht a 2 inch depth in the doors, do I have to use some sort of spacer to keep from losing the bass?
Thanks,
I have searched and so far cannot seem to find the answers to these 2 questions..
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
1. yes - the OEM sub has controls on it for x-over and level
2. as long as the speaker fits and is sealed to the door, no worries
Mr. T
07-30-2007, 10:13 PM
1. yes - the OEM sub has controls on it for x-over and level
2. as long as the speaker fits and is sealed to the door, no worries
Muchos Gracias! :cool:
Hey, my 500th post!
whobaru
07-30-2007, 11:35 PM
I've just read this thread and feel it necessary to chime in and lend a hand. I installed and sold hundreds of car systems (cheap and very expensive) for many companys over many years, so I hope you will trust my input.
A factory speaker such as those in our LGT is made of very lightweight paper-like materials and consequently easy to move and very energy efficient. This is to allow a relatively low-power amplifier to produce decent dB (decibel/volume). If you install an aftermarket speaker to be ran by the same amp, you may even lose dB. An aftermarket speaker is much better built with better materials and a larger magnet, so it is consequently heavier, harder to move, and less efficient, but has more peak power HANDLING, better fidelity, improved separation, and will last longer. What I'm getting at is if you install an aftermarket speaker (especially something as power hungry as the Qs), you will probably lose some or a lot of bass and a little dB. Sound familiar anyone?
As far as the clipping: In any system, as you increase power you increase distortion. When a factory amp like ours starts out with over 1% THD (Total Harmonic Distortion), it only gets worse as you turn up the volume. In addition, as an amp heats up, distortion increases. As distortion increases heat increases. It snowballs! So keep in mind, if you like it loud, don't play it too loud for too long. :) What I'm saying is the clipping you're hearing is distortion from the amplifier making the speakers move back and forth irregularly causing them to bottom out and (as I like to call it) flap around. It's a combination of the speakers and the amplifier. A better built aftermarket speaker won't, "flap around" as easy, so is subsequently harder to distort, BUT only performs well when given more power that can move it accurately.
If bass is what you seek, deadening the doors will always help, but doing this is better at preventing vibration and lessening road noise than it is increasing bass output. When you install sound deadening material like Dynamat, you will notice better speaker performance mostly because of decreased road noise, and sometimes a little because of improved air space stability.
The easy, simple fix to the problem of insufficient bass is a factory sub. The next easiest way is what I have done. I seek the same thing you guys do.
I have added an aftermarket subwoofer amp in conjunction with a 12" sub. My (and most) amplifier(s) have the capability of a remote bass knob to adjust the bass boost to one's preference. This knob can be installed anywhere you can reach it. I can now use the factory stereo settings to back the bass off of the interior speakers such that they can get much louder without distorting (bass is the main thing that sucks power and causes distortion). This allows more of the bass to come from the sub and lightens the load on the factory speakers. Note: mid-bass accentuates sub bass, so don't turn it down too much.
What I now have is a pretty kick-ass system until the paper in the speakers starts to degrade. This is the downfall of every factory system. High/low temps., dust, shock, vibration...you can imagine the effects this has on paper. I'm just waiting for a good dash kit solution to come out so I can throw the rest of my stuff in. For now, I can turn it up quite loud and choose exactly how much bass I'd like for a given song (using my bass-knob) and am even a little surprised with how good it turned out. I'm using pretty high-end equipment for my bass, so I've got that advantage anyhoo.
Hopefully this helps! I aim to rid the world of bad sound!
F1inspiredLGT
08-07-2007, 02:04 PM
I did my system a few months ago and I only replaced all 4 door speakers. On the front doors I had to use an 1" spacer since my new speakers were 2.25" depth. Here are some pics of the install.
1" spacer with speaker
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/ped2509020ee799b6b67420e50104fa5f/e8b87323.jpg
Front view
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pbafd72753d22ff5a386cdb93e817461b/e8b872db.jpg
Dynomated the major holes
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p628c89fa9f3280e70c9c46e1cf50b7d2/e8c40cfd.jpg
Placed polyfoam behind the speakers to increase mid/bass.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/peae6182abde93c067537aa5e1a8af508/e842f0c1.jpg
Then covered the hole door with polyfoam w/foil backing for a sealed enclosure.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p28060952ff5501dfcdb04b4939c52e8b/e842f074.jpg
This makes a huge difference in sound and in sound levels. Plus giving much more mid/bass throughout the ranges.
Mr. T
08-07-2007, 02:36 PM
I did my system a few months ago and I only replaced all 4 door speakers. On the front doors I had to use an 1" spacer since my new speakers were 2.25" depth. Here are some pics of the install.
1" spacer with speaker
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/ped2509020ee799b6b67420e50104fa5f/e8b87323.jpg
Front view
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pbafd72753d22ff5a386cdb93e817461b/e8b872db.jpg
Dynomated the major holes
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p628c89fa9f3280e70c9c46e1cf50b7d2/e8c40cfd.jpg
Placed polyfoam behind the speakers to increase mid/bass.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/peae6182abde93c067537aa5e1a8af508/e842f0c1.jpg
Then covered the hole door with polyfoam w/foil backing for a sealed enclosure.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p28060952ff5501dfcdb04b4939c52e8b/e842f074.jpg
This makes a huge difference in sound and in sound levels. Plus giving much more mid/bass throughout the ranges.
Nice pics. Where did you get the polyfoam? Is Dynamat Extreme a good alternative?
F1inspiredLGT
08-07-2007, 05:30 PM
Nice pics. Where did you get the polyfoam? Is Dynamat Extreme a good alternative?
I used Dynamat light to cover the large holes in the door, which is totally optional because the polyfoam does a great job of it's own. Dynamat Extreme is good if you don't mind the additional weight and cost to do all 4 doors.
For the best bang for the buck, just head down to Home Depot or Lowe's and pick up a roll of this for around $16 bucks, 1 roll should cover all 4 doors.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pde4e927a62acc934d33680077f453839/e842f1c6.jpg
Plus pick up a can of 3m all purpose adhesive $10 - $15.
whobaru
08-07-2007, 07:05 PM
DIY Dynamat...I love it! Good install. Good pics. :)
whobaru
08-07-2007, 07:09 PM
Subarus typically have 5 1/4 speakers. Those look like 6 1/2. Am I correct? I hope so, I hate 5 1/4 and am about to install some 6 1/2 no matter what.
F1inspiredLGT
08-07-2007, 08:07 PM
A typical 6.5 should work. The basket on my 6.5 are a little bigger than the standard 6.5. On the rear door I had to modify the hole with a trusty hammer, by tapping the metal back until the speaker fit. For the fronts the spacer fit just fine.
GTB4me
08-07-2007, 08:26 PM
anyone got any idea what size the standard speakers on a 97 GTB are? and what i could could comfortbly fit in there with a decent headunit? also how much an OEM sub would be? and if they even make them to fit 97 cars?
Mr. T
08-07-2007, 09:41 PM
For the best bang for the buck, just head down to Home Depot or Lowe's and pick up a roll of this for around $16 bucks, 1 roll should cover all 4 doors.
Plus pick up a can of 3m all purpose adhesive $10 - $15.
Another great idea (and a way to save a few bucks)! Thanks:cool:
Another great idea (and a way to save a few bucks)! Thanks:cool:
keep in mind the purpose of a sound dampening mat is to add mass to the panel. that stuff pictured doesn't do this, though it's cheap and effective at sealing the door cavity. Elemental Designs sells a dynamat alternative that's very inexpensive and available by the foot (vs. others who sell 50sq ft +)
whobaru
08-07-2007, 09:53 PM
keep in mind the purpose of a sound dampening mat is to add mass to the panel. that stuff pictured doesn't do this, though it's cheap and effective at sealing the door cavity. Elemental Designs sells a dynamat alternative that's very inexpensive and available by the foot (vs. others who sell 50sq ft +)
DUDE! You just made my effin year!! I have long resented Dynamat and their ridiculous prices! THANK YOU!!
most welcome, but be sure to thank ED...they are the ones who are turning 12V on it's head with great products for reasonable prices.
whobaru
08-08-2007, 12:47 AM
most welcome, but be sure to thank ED...they are the ones who are turning 12V on it's head with great products for reasonable prices.
Done.
F1inspiredLGT
08-08-2007, 01:26 AM
keep in mind the purpose of a sound dampening mat is to add mass to the panel. that stuff pictured doesn't do this, though it's cheap and effective at sealing the door cavity. Elemental Designs sells a dynamat alternative that's very inexpensive and available by the foot (vs. others who sell 50sq ft +)
I agree, Elemental Designs do have some kickass stuff. The main purpose of my build was to have the best possible sound with the least amount of weight and cost. You'll be suprised how well the Polyfoam w/foil works, I even did my wifes car with stock speakers and made the overall sound about 50% better. Plus one roll weighs about 1 pound.
Just another alternative for those looking to save weight and money.