Only getting 15psi after K&N intake install - read my logs

[CasopoliS]

I just installed a K&N Typhoon intake system, then shortly after I installed GP moto EL headers.

I did a log after I installed the K&N Typhoon and sent it to Jon @ TDC. He sent me a realtime to tune for the intake and I only hit 16 psi peak. I figured it just needed more tuning, but disregarded that since I was putting on my headers soon.

I slapped on the headers and after a couple of logs and realtimes from Jon... I am still only getting 15 or 16 psi. So now I am thinking it was actually the intake. I hit 18psi peak on the TDC STG II before the K&N. After the K&N - only 15 or 16psi.

I flashed BACK to TDC STG II and still only getting 15 psi... whereas before I got 18psi. So it is not the map.

Since boost dropped after the K&N, I assume it is the K&N. The links to the logs are below:

**logs removed oer TDC's request. Try to help without them!**

Order:
tdc_stg_2
KN_typhoon_log1
headers_log1
headers_tuned_log2

let me know your thoughts.

[balrock01]

http://legacygt.com/forums/tdc-tuning/40471-tdc-special-week-08-a.html

you should jump on this one

[John M]

Not that I can help, but I find it interesting that somehow your logs can give away their proprietary information...

[PhilT]

What did Jon say, apart from asking you to remove your logs ?

Try putting back the stock intake, see what happens then.

[GTTuner]

I dont think the K&N has anything to do with it.

Swap it back over to what you had before just for assurance it's not the intake. I had problems with my Stage 1 pro tune overboosting. I had already ran the Typhoon with Cobb stage 1 and had no problems. Turns out the ID of one of the vacuum fittings at the waste gate soleniod was screwing with the tune.

Go over you WG hoses very carefully. Pressure test them, make sure everything is stock in those hoses for WG control.

Good luck, let us know what you come up with.

Just an note, if you are running the stock turbo and WG, the actuator is a 9psi unit. If you apply pressure to it, it should start to open preciesly at 9 psi. OR, if u block one of the lines to the WG solenoid (in essence, turning it off) you should see between 9 and 12 psi.

[CasopoliS]

I dont think the K&N has anything to do with it.

Swap it back over to what you had before just for assurance it's not the intake. I had problems with my Stage 1 pro tune overboosting. I had already ran the Typhoon with Cobb stage 1 and had no problems. Turns out the ID of one of the vacuum fittings at the waste gate soleniod was screwing with the tune.

Go over you WG hoses very carefully. Pressure test them, make sure everything is stock in those hoses for WG control.

Good luck, let us know what you come up with.

Just an note, if you are running the stock turbo and WG, the actuator is a 9psi unit. If you apply pressure to it, it should start to open preciesly at 9 psi. OR, if u block one of the lines to the WG solenoid (in essence, turning it off) you should see between 9 and 12 psi.

Thanks, yea I am searching around for boost leaks. I cannot seem to find anything while its idling.... but since it is a small leak it might be hard to find.

Would a slight leak at the exhaust do the same thing? I have already ruled this out a little, since the problem started after the K&N.

[GTsleeper]

i really dont see the intake doing this. i have bolted on stuff after my tune & no bad affects, just good.

for exhaust leak..... if its leaking before the front O2 sensor its possible that the O2 is getting a different reading. basically it will see more oxygen in the exhaust & will richen up the A/F.

[CasopoliS]

i really dont see the intake doing this. i have bolted on stuff after my tune & no bad affects, just good.

for exhaust leak..... if its leaking before the front O2 sensor its possible that the O2 is getting a different reading. basically it will see more oxygen in the exhaust & will richen up the A/F.

but would that change the boost? I thought maybe if there was a leak... that air is not available to help spin the turbo and thus I am getting low readings. I am a noob at that stuff though. Seems it would have to be a big leak for this to be true... but maybe not.

Either way.... the bottom line is, I was not hitting target boost after I installed the intake. i.e. I might have bumped something during that install. (not the intake itself of course)

[Beanboy]

What? TDC wanted your logs removed? Why?

[GTsleeper]

but would that change the boost? I thought maybe if there was a leak... that air is not available to help spin the turbo and thus I am getting low readings. I am a noob at that stuff though. Seems it would have to be a big leak for this to be true... but maybe not.

Either way.... the bottom line is, I was not hitting target boost after I installed the intake. i.e. I might have bumped something during that install. (not the intake itself of course)

it would have to be a huge leak to do something like that. still almost impossible on the exhaust side.

[Beanboy]

I was getting a a nice boxer rumble withe enough air coming out of the manifold to UP gasket to put out a match, but it didn't hurt max boost readings at all...or not much. Was hitting 17.8 with that kinda leak...

[TSi+WRX]

^ I agree - it's not unusual for even quite large UP leaks to manifest with fully realized target boost....

Check header-to-manifold on both sides?

[GTTuner]

Just a thought. Is you boost gauge accurate?

[TSi+WRX]

^ Good question.

But I'd assume that brother Cas is reading this off at least his gauge *and* his datalogs?

[CasopoliS]

^ Good question.

But I'd assume that brother Cas is reading this off at least his gauge *and* his datalogs?

yea realtime AP readings and logs.

I will check my header to manifold connections and also look around at my vac lines. Thanks for the help guys.

Oh, and about TDC, a knowledgable person could see the changes between the logs and essentially see what TDC does on these eTunes.

[GTTuner]

It would be interesting to compare WG duty cycles before and after.

I'm sorry, but did you say you posted logs?

[CasopoliS]

It would be interesting to compare WG duty cycles before and after.

I'm sorry, but did you say you posted logs?

TDC did not want me to post logs. I made some graphs in excel.... I assume these can't hurt.

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/2166/wgdutycomparovy3.jpg

Stage II - Tuned - 18psi max boost
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5943/stgiiwgboostia4.jpg

K&N Installed - Tune #1 - 16.8psi max boost. (I have not gotten this high again)
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8186/knwgboostfz0.jpg

K&N and EL Headers Installed - Tune #2 - 15.5psi peak
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/306/headerswgboostlb3.jpg

[CasopoliS]

bump for some help trying to tackle this. Can someone talk to me a bit about WG duty cycles and how it relates to boost? I understand it controls it, but what to you make of the graphs and how does the lower WG duty cycle you see in my last two graphs effect the boost?

[TRS]

The higher the WG duty cycle the more the solenoid is bleeding off pressure seen by the actuator from the compressor. With a high duty cycle enough pressure is being bled off to keep the actuator spring from being overcome so the WG stays closed. As the duty cycle gets lower less pressure is being bled off so more pressure is applied against the spring and the WG will start to open.

I've got a similar problem with boost. At WOT my duty cycle very rapidly drops from 90% to about 50% and my boost, which only briefly hits 12-13 psi, quickly tapers off as the WG opens.

Jon at TDC asked me to send him logs of this, which a did a couple days ago, but I haven't heard anything back yet.

[GTTuner]

Nice job with the graphs!

TDC is very busy with the new wind tunnel project!:icon_bigg

Looking at the last graph (tune 2) it looks like the wg duty cycle is delayed to full boost by approximately 500 rpm higher than tune 1. The percentage of duty cycle is also lower on the tune 2, ( looks like 93% vs 96ish for tune 1).

[CasopoliS]

TDC and I went back and forth last night with different MAPS. it is not EM... it must be something mechanical that is messing with my WGDC. I guess I will start stepping backwards with the mods and see whats up.

Its crazy.... low boost even on the old maps. But no boost leak evident in my logs or under the hood.

[trabbic]

Lets take off your intake first and check all hoses and connections, since thats when the low boost started.


Saturday morning?

[CasopoliS]

Lets take off your intake first and check all hoses and connections, since thats when the low boost started.


Saturday morning?

Sure. I am waking up early (7:00?) to weed wack the flower garden in my back yard (might wake you up). That should not take long. We can take some logs then. Check your email.

[Vimy101]

Sorry if I missed it if you already did it but why don't you take the AM filter off? That seems to be when your problems began. Subaru engineers did a great job with the OEM CAI system.

[CasopoliS]

Sorry if I missed it if you already did it but why don't you take the AM filter off? That seems to be when your problems began. Subaru engineers did a great job with the OEM CAI system.

Becuase the intake should have nothing to do with the problem I am seeing. We first thought is was an engine management issue... so that was the first step. Now that we know it is not that, we will start stepping backwards.

If you dont know, K&N is a good tunable intake for the LGT. TDC, the company that tunes them, has tuned these intakes and never seen an issue like this with the install. Subaru did a good job, you are right. But this should not be happening. I have run other intakes on my car with no problems.

[Vimy101]

Becuase the intake should have nothing to do with the problem I am seeing. We first thought is was an engine management issue... so that was the first step. Now that we know it is not that, we will start stepping backwards.

If you dont know, K&N is a good tunable intake for the LGT. TDC, the company that tunes them, has tuned these intakes and never seen an issue like this with the install. Subaru did a good job, you are right. But this should not be happening. I have run other intakes on my car with no problems.

I am familiar with all sorts of AM miracle products. We used to have many discussions about them on the NICO site. The consensus was that highly trained engineers would not leave easy (and cheap) performance gains lying on the table. We had some very highly qualified people posting complete with dyno results and graphs, etc. The only time AM products - K&N included - ever produced better results was in extremely narrow rpm bands under certain conditions but the gains were marginal at best (5hp) and more than offset by overall engine performance losses and long term reliability concerns.

At the very least, you could revert to the OEM intake set up to verify that the problem definitely lies with the intake or not. You have a CAI for your K&N, right?

[CasopoliS]

I am familiar with all sorts of AM miracle products. We used to have many discussions about them on the NICO site. The consensus was that highly trained engineers would not leave easy (and cheap) performance gains lying on the table. We had some very highly qualified people posting complete with dyno results and graphs, etc. The only time AM products - K&N included - ever produced better results was in extremely narrow rpm bands under certain conditions but the gains were marginal at best (5hp) and more than offset by overall engine performance losses and long term reliability concerns.

At the very least, you could revert to the OEM intake set up to verify that the problem definitely lies with the intake or not. You have a CAI for your K&N, right?

I am going to swap intakes for sure... trust me. I have the K&N Typhoon which is a short intake with heatshield. Comes with everything.

I know there are no power gains.... I did it for sound and looks. I like to hear my stock BPV... that is mostly why I got it. It is actually not that loud under woot... its when I tap the gas on the highway and it sucks air like none other. No flamming.

[REM87O]

[QUOTE=Vimy101;713346] The consensus was that highly trained engineers would not leave easy (and cheap) performance gains lying on the table.QUOTE]


In your analysis, did you consider the role other departments play in the production and release of a vehicle? Marketing and finance have a role as well and I don't think they other considerations. Subaru has shown it will ax features to save a few pennies.

[Vimy101]

[quote=Vimy101;713346] The consensus was that highly trained engineers would not leave easy (and cheap) performance gains lying on the table.QUOTE]


In your analysis, did you consider the role other departments play in the production and release of a vehicle? Marketing and finance have a role as well and I don't think they other considerations. Subaru has shown it will ax features to save a few pennies.

They might do that for an Ipod connection (dammit!) but not for easy and cheap efficiency gains that increase engine performance and therefore CAFE mpg considerations. It would be cheaper from a manufacturing standpoint to do away with the fancy OEM CAI system and slap on an intake right next to the motor. Of course, then you'd be sucking in hot air from around the engine and that is a major efficiency robber that would suck power potential from the engine and decrease mpg.

[REM87O]

[quote=REM87O;713368]

They might do that for an Ipod connection (dammit!) but not for easy and cheap efficiency gains that increase engine performance and therefore CAFE mpg considerations. It would be cheaper from a manufacturing standpoint to do away with the fancy OEM CAI system and slap on an intake right next to the motor. Of course, then you'd be sucking in hot air from around the engine and that is a major efficiency robber that would suck power potential from the engine and decrease mpg.

I see what you are saying.

Nobody wants an Ipod connection! lol I am doing the Jazzymt (sp) mod. It's lame we don't have it.

[CasopoliS]

Back OT. I will slap the stock intake on and put my map back to TDC STG II and do a log. I will post those plots this weekend. Stay tuned!!

[Vimy101]

Good luck.

[2005garnetGT]

I can't believe TDC wont let you post logs, thats a strike against them in my book.
yeah, so their stage 2 is a more aggressive boost map and WGDC map...
its not like thats a secret....
(not to mention they cannot copyright those maps)

[CasopoliS]

I can't believe TDC wont let you post logs, thats a strike against them in my book.
yeah, so their stage 2 is a more aggressive boost map and WGDC map...
its not like thats a secret....
(not to mention they cannot copyright those maps)

eh dont worry about it. true, they cannot copyright the maps... so this is one way of trying to protect them I guess. I really know nothing about it.

[GTTuner]

Just my 2 cents....hopefully it may save you some work.

Take the WG vacuum lines right out of the car. Make sure EVERY PIECE in there is stock, including tee fittings, and the infamous restrictor pill.

The tee burned me in the ass.

[TDC Joe]

We don't like posting our logs just for the simple reason that they are the results of our efforts and work. There are a lot of things that can go wrong with posting them. People don't know how to read them like a tuner and will give wrong advice and impressions of issues. They can and do tell a slight picture of how Jon tunes the cars and what targets he uses to achieve our results that another tuner could easily start to copy if they saw enough before and after logs.

We aren't trying to be jerks at all. It is simply protection. We use logs to do our work. Although they don't tell a full story it is still better for us in general to leave the reading logs to us and not making them public.

That is like trying to get a baker to list all the ingredients so their special meal that everyone LOVES. If he listed them then people could go dabble and steal the idea.

Thanks all....nothing more nothing less.

[CasopoliS]

Just my 2 cents....hopefully it may save you some work.

Take the WG vacuum lines right out of the car. Make sure EVERY PIECE in there is stock, including tee fittings, and the infamous restrictor pill.

The tee burned me in the ass.
Thanks. I will look at the lines, but remember I did not touch them. So if something came loose it was because they were bumped inadvertantly.
If it was a boost leak I think my logs would be different... Jon agrees. If I had a boost leak my WGDC might actually go up to compensate.

[2005garnetGT]

the logs aren't posted, but the WGDC tables in excel are....
I'm actually kinda surprised that you run so much dutycycle!
85% at redline, WOW!
my boost map looks pretty close to that though lol, 16.5psi tapering to 11.8 psi at redline

[CasopoliS]

crap so I pitched my stock air filter. I went to Autozone but they don't have the right size. I just need something to test in the stock airbox.

***calling Trabbic to see if he has an air filter

[CasopoliS]

Ok I put the stock air box in and stock air filter (thanks zip ties in place of 1 hose clamp).

I loaded the TDC STG II base map - no realtimes.

WGDC looks high - but it does not dip. Still getting low boost - but at least WGDC is looking like it did on my past runs where I hit the right boost.

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/5822/stockairboxwgboostat9.jpg

[CasopoliS]

bump. I have not gotten a response from anyone on this... I really dont know how to interpret these results.

[REM87O]

Did TDC have anything for you? I am curious what they think it is.

[CasopoliS]

Jon is plain confused.

[TRS]

Jon is plain confused.That's not good since I'm experiencing the same problem. He sent me another real time map that resulted in a marginal increase in boost, but still nowhere near where it should be.

[2005garnetGT]

is your BCS dirty perhaps?

[CasopoliS]

is your BCS dirty perhaps?

How can I check this?
Thanks.

[CasopoliS]

Ok, I re-inatlled the K&N intake and did not change the MAP. I got 90.2 WGDC flat the entire time... and a peak boost of 16.4. So same as the last plot I showed.
This was right after I installed it, so no ECU learning (same thing I did with stock airbox).

So there is no real difference in my logs between the stock intake and K&N on the TDC STG II map. Timing and KC about the same (for now).

My Mass Air reading was 234 on the stock airbox, and 225 on the K&N typhoon. On the stock airbox my intake air temp went from 29 degress to 25 by redline. On the K&N it went from 25 degrees to 24 by redline. I did logs about the same time of day so outside temps should be close.

My engine load on the stock air box was max of 2.75 at 4500 RPM, and on the K&N it was max of 2.69 at 3000 RPM. The numbers were not that different between 3k and 4.5k - so I would not think anything of the 1.5k difference.

[CasopoliS]

Next I am going to load the TDC STG II + K&N intake base map and see how that effects my WGDC. See if it dips down again like it did last time. If it dips down... then I would think it is a tuning issue, since I can run a flat WGDC on other maps. I think 90.2 is really high.... but at least it is flat like my old logs.

[2005garnetGT]

90.2 IS really high.
thats an absurd WGDC..... actually...
someone was having this problem on a baja turbo over at openecu.org, let me find the thread
openecu.org :: View topic - WGD% Will not go above 90 on Baja Turbo (DBW). (http://forums.openecu.org/viewtopic.php?t=710)

[CasopoliS]

I jumped in there and posted - thanks for the link.

I wonder why on 1 map - I get 86% WGDC - then on the other it 'maxes' to 90.2%. The guy in the thread linked above is also getting 90.2 dead on - while he is trying to tell it elsewise.

Some other parameter is causing my WGDC to jump up like this... I dont know what.

Does anyone have logs from when they had a boost leak?

[CasopoliS]

Christian at COBB seems to think the headers are what is throwing the car off. I am starting to agree since I have tried everything else but replace those. Thinking about getting an aftermarket uppipe and testing that on the stock headers. If everything turns out good, I will just keep it that way. I think headers can provide great flow characteristics... but you really need to put the car on a dyno and tune with it right there... it changes the dyncamic too much.

Thanks guys.

[sandwood]

bump - casopolis, what was the solution here?

[BoxerGT2.5]

You didn't mess with the inlet tube by some chance did you?

[CasopoliS]

I took EL headers off and put stock haders on with Helix uppipe. Hitting decent boost but still have really high WGDC.

I do not think it was the intake - it was just a coincidence.