Teh LGT Wagon kicks a$$ at Laguna Seca

[RippinRoo]

Attended the NASA High Performance Driving Event at Laguna Seca (near Monterey, CA for those that aren't familiar) for one day yesterday, driving my bone stock Legacy GT Wagon with stock wheels & tires, & I was more than pleasantly surprised at how well the wagon kicks ass on the track!

Caveat - I enrolled in and drove with the "Beginner's" group (Group 1 & 2) so maybe it wasn't a fair comparison. But then I had never driven on this track, had never driven the wagon that hard, and I wouldn't consider myself experienced by a long shot.

The wagon gobbled up nearly all other cars, some which sounded seriously modified, and nearly all with track tires: Miatas - no problem; Mini - bye bye; VW VR6 - auf wiedersehen; RX8 - sayonara; Cadillac CTS - see ya; Corvettes (gen 4) - later dude; Porsche Boxster - lemme by slowpoke!! I only noticed 2 cars that were significantly faster than me & my wagon: a heavily modified WRX and a Porsche 911.

The wagon is very forgiving on the track; a little bit of push through the corners, but lifting the throttle helps bring the tail around predictably. Getting back on it straightens the car out nicely. Very confidence inspiring!

Considering the stock performance on the track, I'm seriously jazzed about the mods discussed by folks on this forum. I can't imagine the improvement with just with the brakes, wheels & tires, and mild suspension mods! Add to that some mild engine mods, the wagon should be filling everyone's mirrors no problem.

Reminds me... my wife went to check out the pics the pro photographers took... when she mentioned which car it was, 3 other guys said "Oh, you're the one that was glued to my bumper until I let you pass!" :lol: She said "That wasn't me, that was my husband."

Only one other Legacy there, the black Legacy GT wagon belonging to hotrodwagon (http://legacygt.com/forums/member.php?u=2340), a very nicely done machine. Enjoyed meeting and talking to Scott and his buddy Shane who brought his WRX.

For those of you that haven't gone before, it's definitely worth going. A couple of pics below; check out my custom vinyl numbers. :icon_bigg

[Aczwild]

Schweeet besides the Nurburgring I wanna hit the 'Guna in my GT. If I do go out to Pasadena for school after I get done here I'll definitely be tappin that track everyonce an a while

[PhilT]

Damn, that Corkscrew looks awesome.

How did you fair compared to Jeremy Clarkson ?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5587010895482106872

[RippinRoo]

Damn, that Corkscrew looks awesome.

How did you fair compared to Jeremy Clarkson ?

:lol: Probably not even close to his original 2+ min time!! Tho' the instructor gave me a ride-along in his NSX, and holy cr4p!! He probably beat 1:41 easily! Definite pucker factor. But it absolutely helped me see where I did NOT need to brake.

Corkscrew was an absolute kick! No way to see the apex of the lower part of the corner until it was way too late to do anything about it. I found a reference point & after that I could easily floor it after I made the initial turn in and then enjoy the ride down... almost felt weightless, then when the suspension loaded up, I could turn and get set up for the next corner. Exhilarating every single time!!

[Gire]

That looks like an absolute blast!
Thanks for sharing your day (and the Clarkson link)!

Phil and I both have white wagons, so no surprise we were all over your thread. It's great to see one going hard on a great track.

[legacy_y_tu]

Oh man that looks like such a blast. Good to hear about the stock performance on the track. I love the suspension squat in the second picture...man that sucker is compressed, looks mean!! :icon_twis

I so want to run at Limerock this spring, gotta make it happen.

[agctr]

Looks like you had an amazing time. Certainly one of my fav tracks on GT3 and GT4. Looks like you are really pushing hard which is great. Sounds like a fun day. Thanks for posting up.
Ada///M.

PS Was the Vinyl done by a professional..... Looks great... Cheers.

[executor485]

Thats freakin awesome... I would love to do that with my car. I just want the "Hey... thats a sedan(in your case even better... wagon), how the hell does it do that?!?!" :)

[RippinRoo]

PS Was the Vinyl done by a professional..... Looks great... Cheers.

:lol: It was done by my wife... she's the artist in our family. :icon_bigg

[Xenonk]

:lol: Probably not even close to his original 2+ min time!! Tho' the instructor gave me a ride-along in his NSX, and holy cr4p!! He probably beat 1:41 easily! Definite pucker factor. But it absolutely helped me see where I did NOT need to brake.

Corkscrew was an absolute kick! No way to see the apex of the lower part of the corner until it was way too late to do anything about it. I found a reference point & after that I could easily floor it after I made the initial turn in and then enjoy the ride down... almost felt weightless, then when the suspension loaded up, I could turn and get set up for the next corner. Exhilarating every single time!!


I am kinda suprised that West Coast NASA group 1 and 2 dont get instructors to ride along with the students during their session around the track??

The ride along with the instructor helps, but that's demonstrating their abilities on their cars, not yours, so it's possible that the rest of the students were really out on the track for the very first time and that you have more experience than they do about car control and track ettitquette than they did, hopefully the rest of the group got faster as the day went bye? Was there a time where the instructors rode with you when you went out with your sessions?


What else did you do to your wagon?

[RippinRoo]

I am kinda suprised that West Coast NASA group 1 and 2 dont get instructors to ride along with the students during their session around the track??

What else did you do to your wagon?

Hi Keefe!!

Only Group 1 got instructors; Group 2 didn't. I signed up for both 1 & 2 because I wasn't sure how the run groups were going to work; my wife & I both wanted to be able to drive. My wife wanted to go with the instructor, so she got Group 1. As it turns out, we both could have gotten into Group 1, but I didn't mind... :icon_bigg

V likely that folks improved on the track... I know I did! One of the Corvettes and the Boxster both spun in front of me in the later sessions... pushing a bit harder than before! The Boxster driver was super conservative in the corners after that! I only noticed because I got stuck behind him the 2nd half of the last session; he braked waaaay early, but I didn't have the hp to get past him in the designated passing zones... annoyed the heck out of me that he wouldn't point me (or anyone else) by... :mad:

Haven't done anything at all to the wagon (no engine stuff, no suspension, no brakes... off the showroom floor stock!), but I have been reading with GREAT interest all the stuff you posted regarding suspension, brakes, wheels&tires. Thank you VERY much for taking the time to post the awesome information!! Based a lot on your inputs, I've ordered some 18x8 OZ Superleggera wheels along with some Kumho 225/40/18 tires for track days and will also order the one-piece RacingBrake rotors F & R. Debating what to do with suspension; I may just start out with an adjustable rear sway bar, but haven't settled on it yet... gotta wait for a few more paychecks in first!!

[Xenonk]

ah ok.. here in the east coast, NASA breaks up the HDPE day with 4 groups:

Group 1: Novice with instructors all day (if applicable, all weekend long)
Group 2: Intermediates with instructors (day 2 has an optional instructor sign-off for solo IF the instructor is confident in your driving ;) )
Group 3: Advanced (no instructors, but if you can find one for yourself for a ride-along, that's fine)
Group 4: Advanced w/o needing passing signals anywhere on the track, Instructors, and Racers

Sounds like you had a blast. Just becareful with the stickier tires, the car will want to roll more in that process.. not sure if the roll bar overall will help you in that sense. Btw, did you cook your stock pads on the track? I know the GT has some good stock brakes off the showroom, but I cant imagine you going that deep into turn 1 and into the right hander after sweeping left (turns 11 and 12?) coming out of the corkscrew. What's more amazing is that you drove on RE92s on the track. I wouldnt even bother going that deep with anyone to make ground for a practice track day.

Just becareful out there.. hope you and your wife paid up the life insurance premiums :lol: I know I did.

[RippinRoo]

Heh... Nope, they didn't have any Group 2 instructors, nor did they mention anything for Group 2 instructor sign-off... I didn't even realize there was supposed to be a progression path (group 1 -> sign off -> group 2 etc) until I got home and took a closer look at the NASA site... (Woohoo... I like the Time Trials idea!!) No biggie... I'll be back!!

Excellent point about the additional body roll! I'll keep that in mind next time I go... doubt I'll have anything done besides what I mentioned by then... coilovers would be nice!

The brakes did get cooked pretty well... Turn 1 wasn't all that bad because I always chickened out going up the front straight... it crests and bends off to the left at the same time before going downhill into the turn, so I'd lift out of the throttle a bit long before the braking zone... It's extremely difficult to counter the self preservation instincts! But before the corkscrew, and definitely before turn 11 (the last corner, very hard left 90 degree), I had to get on the brakes HARD... I thought for sure I'd warped the rotors because the brakes juddered on the track toward the end of the day, but they seem to be fine now (phew!). But that's why the brake kit is near the top of the list.

After reading about the RE92s on this forum, I was pretty impressed with how well they handled too... I was expecting them to really suck on the track. I added about 5psi all around to help avoid rolling over the sidewalls... they still did a little, but they were nicely predictable (in my very much amateur opinion).

+1 on the life insurance!

[MDork]

NorCal NASA has optional instructors (passengers allowed) in group 2 and pass by's are not required when in passing zone. group 3 has more liberal passing zones. group 4 is every man for himself!

wish i could have made it down....surprised the track was dry!

[RippinRoo]

It did sprinkle a few times, enough to lightly wet down the track... The instructors said the wet track would "allow your car to do a lot more at lower speeds." :)

[sandwood]

nice work. great new avatar! love to see wagons on the track.

[MDork]

Its not the wet track that makes me nervous...its the wet dirt right off the track. Slide + mud = flip

Will you be doing Infineon in April or September?

[Xenonk]

It's extremely difficult to counter the self preservation instincts! But before the corkscrew, and definitely before turn 11 (the last corner, very hard left 90 degree), I had to get on the brakes HARD... I thought for sure I'd warped the rotors because the brakes juddered on the track toward the end of the day, but they seem to be fine now (phew!).

That juddering sound you are getting is that the rotors are starting to warp and they are getting too hot before the next braking event.. you'll need more time in between the corners to cool them off.. better brake pads, 2-piece rotors and better tires to efficiently get the brakes to do what it was suppose to do will yield cooler temps. Another way to slow down is to use some trail braking as well (which I do a lot when I am at a track that I am not familar with).. the car will rotate and slow down with the aid of lateral g-forces scrubbing the car's speed down (basically you are creating a lot of friction and throwing the momentum in a different direction so that the car will slow down with some engine braking in the process.. it all adds up).

[MDork]

Another way to slow down is to use some trail braking as well (which I do a lot when I am at a track that I am not familar with).. the car will rotate and slow down with the aid of lateral g-forces scrubbing the car's speed down (basically you are creating a lot of friction and throwing the momentum in a different direction so that the car will slow down with some engine braking in the process.. it all adds up).

i think you may want to re-learn trail braking. it really doesnt involve using "lateral g-forces to scrub speed" nor does it in any way involve engine braking.

trail braking is simply a technique to brake later into a turn where the critical success factor relies on maintaining the limit of adhesion through the combination of turning/braking simultaneously through to turning/accellerating without upsetting the balance of traction. The old analogy of the "friction circle" explains this well. you can do a goog search and learn more.

[Xenonk]

i think you may want to re-learn trail braking. it really doesnt involve using "lateral g-forces to scrub speed" nor does it in any way involve engine braking.

trail braking is simply a technique to brake later into a turn where the critical success factor relies on maintaining the limit of adhesion through the combination of turning/braking simultaneously through to turning/accellerating without upsetting the balance of traction. The old analogy of the "friction circle" explains this well. you can do a goog search and learn more.


I meant it as an addition to trail braking.. (holding the brakes a little bit longer through the transitision of the turn-in).. it's not only to maximize your grip (friction), but it's a balance of it.. you can certainly go into a corner hot and use the method of point-shoot, but if you can blend more of it in and maximize your grip (friction), then you can balance the brake work from the steering work from there.. Friction is out there to slow you down, it doesnt always have to be full-on with the brakes to achieve the same effect.

If it was based on racing management, one would probably need to learn how to conserve the tires and use more of the straight line braking thus relying the brakes to do more of the frictional work.. but if you want to sacrifice the duration of the tires, you can cheat some and not rely on the brakes so much and focus on the steering to scrub some speed down.. it's just all a juggling act that I think everyone should understand both spectrums of using full brakes vs full allowable steering.

[MDork]

sorry man...i recognize that you are never wrong...but your first post was wrong...and the last post makes no sense.

maybe you guys on the east coast trail brake by scrubbing speed with your tires...out on the west coast we call that over-driving.

im not trying to be a prick, just hate to think someone will read your post and then try your version of "trail braking" on the track.

[RippinRoo]

Will you be doing Infineon in April or September?

Infineon in April is very likely.


...better brake pads, 2-piece rotors and better tires to efficiently get the brakes to do what it was suppose to do will yield cooler temps.

Well shiznit!! I just ordered the RacingBrake one-piece rotors! You think I should have gotten the 2-piece rotors instead?? Ack!! :icon_neut

I think I get what Xenonk is saying about trail-braking... I've never considered "brake, turn, gas" as absolute gospel. There's a lot of adjustment I found I was able to do mid-corner without turning the steering wheel... let off the gas & I could tighten the corner... get on the gas & I could push out... I can see how I could use that to save the brakes on corner entry...

[MDork]

cool...well hopefully ill be out in my coupe in april so long as rainy season is ending (im a wimp about rain if you didnt notice already)

what youre describing is throttle-steering and is also different than trail braking. im happy to hear the leggy responds well to throttle steering...one of the best feelings for me is to steer with the right foot :D

turn 4 at infineon is fastest if taken with major trail braking....takes some cojones but really rewarding when you get it right.

[GT-L]

damn im so jealous, how much did all this cost if you dont mind me asking?

[RippinRoo]

what youre describing is throttle-steering and is also different than trail braking.

Ah, got it... Still learning... :)

Looking forward to seeing your MCoupe... beautiful cars!

[RippinRoo]

damn im so jealous, how much did all this cost if you dont mind me asking?

It runs $249 for the day... it's $100 cheaper to go to Infineon or Thunderhill... signing up for 2 days also gives you a break, I think... that is, it's not $498 for 2 days... See http://www.nasaproracing.com/norcal/index.html for more info...

(I am assuming you're asking about the HPDE cost... :confused: )

[sandwood]

I am still a bit ignorant about trail braking - I understand it means your still braking as you enter the corner - does that mean you have to be using your right foot to roll off the brake and onto the accelerator at the same time? that wd seem to be the only way to do it smoothly - I'd hate to get off the brake and then, unsettled, onto the gas, while I am already in the corner.

I'm still a bomb in, stand on the brakes and shift, then turn and accelerate guy. that's bc I still have never really gotten the hang of using my right foot laterally, for rev matching downshifts while braking or all that good stuff. just seems to damn hard to blip the throttle with the clutch in on our cars. insights please....

[Xenonk]

sorry man...i recognize that you are never wrong...but your first post was wrong...and the last post makes no sense.

maybe you guys on the east coast trail brake by scrubbing speed with your tires...out on the west coast we call that over-driving.

im not trying to be a prick, just hate to think someone will read your post and then try your version of "trail braking" on the track.


I have been wrong many times with the words I use and I'll definitely admit to that. I'll just simplify by saying "try some trail-braking".

[Xenonk]

Well shiznit!! I just ordered the RacingBrake one-piece rotors! You think I should have gotten the 2-piece rotors instead?? Ack!! :icon_neut

I think I get what Xenonk is saying about trail-braking... I've never considered "brake, turn, gas" as absolute gospel. There's a lot of adjustment I found I was able to do mid-corner without turning the steering wheel... let off the gas & I could tighten the corner... get on the gas & I could push out... I can see how I could use that to save the brakes on corner entry...


If you plan on using the GT a lot more for track events, you should go with the 2-piece. Currently I will be putting some abuse on the 1-pieces for now and see how long they can last.

I'll try not to elaborate so much the posts from now on, seems that if I get into my version POVs, I'll get flamed :p

[Xenonk]

I am still a bit ignorant about trail braking - I understand it means your still braking as you enter the corner - does that mean you have to be using your right foot to roll off the brake and onto the accelerator at the same time? that wd seem to be the only way to do it smoothly - I'd hate to get off the brake and then, unsettled, onto the gas, while I am already in the corner.

I'm still a bomb in, stand on the brakes and shift, then turn and accelerate guy. that's bc I still have never really gotten the hang of using my right foot laterally, for rev matching downshifts while braking or all that good stuff. just seems to damn hard to blip the throttle with the clutch in on our cars. insights please....

Trail braking is the conjunction/transition of being on the brakes with your right foot while making the turn-in. It's an overlap of the steering input and braking input all while maximizing your grip via traction circle. It's a balancing act of the brakes and steering.

[sandwood]

right, but do you have to be rolling onto the gas while rolling off the brakes to do it correctly?

[MDork]

I am still a bit ignorant about trail braking - I understand it means your still braking as you enter the corner - does that mean you have to be using your right foot to roll off the brake and onto the accelerator at the same time? that wd seem to be the only way to do it smoothly - I'd hate to get off the brake and then, unsettled, onto the gas, while I am already in the corner.

I'm still a bomb in, stand on the brakes and shift, then turn and accelerate guy. that's bc I still have never really gotten the hang of using my right foot laterally, for rev matching downshifts while braking or all that good stuff. just seems to damn hard to blip the throttle with the clutch in on our cars. insights please....

trail braking doesnt typically involve rolling from brake to throttle. the easiest (and most common) way to explain it is to imagine there is a string connecting the steering wheel to the brake pedal...as you turn the wheel more, your foot should be gradually lifting off the brake pedal, as if the string pulled up on the pedal as the wheel turned...such that you are completely off the brake pedal when you are at full turn in...as you begin to unwind the wheel, the string works in the opposite fashion with the throttle (less steering allows more throttle).

The "friction circle" concept explains this as well. the friction circle basically illustrates the concept of sharing traction. if your braking efforts are utilizing 100% of your tires traction, any steering input could upset traction and induce a spin/understeer. if steering is consuming 100%, any braking or throttle could upset the balance (traction) of the car. So trail braking starts with 100% braking (straight line) then as you add steering input you gradually reduce the braking effort so that you are theoretically still within the boundaries of the friction circle. i hope that makes sense...much easier when you see the drawing.

[Xenonk]

sorry man...i recognize that you are never wrong...but your first post was wrong...and the last post makes no sense.


You should be happy that I am nowhere near as n00b as this guy's postings (but I'll do a better job rewording my thoughts and such from now on, sorry for the previous bad/wrong postings, but enjoy these really terrible ones):
CED @ www.bimmerforums.com (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/search.php?searchid=2764471)

I couldn't stop laughing by reading this particular post:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=446471
start with post #22 and on..

Post #32 (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5414239&postcount=32) is my favorite:
"Remember: my early turn-in point should NOT to be confused with an early apex!"


I can see MDork shaking his head and laughing too hard from the "early apex is some advanced sh*t", I know I was... lesson to all, dont be like this CED guy, thanks.

[Xenonk]

Ah, got it... Still learning... :)

I also forgot to tell you about that juddering, it's also from the brake pad deposits on the brake pads and rotor surface that is making that brake-shake feeling.

[MDork]

CED has been ridiculed beyond all recognition...almost feel bad for the guy. my only reason for being a stickler is to help others who might be reading. i certainly dont know everything, just doing my part to stop misinformation from spreading (intentional or not)

you have a bmw also or just on the boards there? lots of great people who track in that crowd.

[Xenonk]

The "friction circle" concept explains this as well. the friction circle basically illustrates the concept of sharing traction.

So trail braking starts with 100% braking (straight line) then as you add steering input you gradually reduce the braking effort so that you are theoretically still within the boundaries of the friction circle. i hope that makes sense...much easier when you see the drawing.

http://www.saskcycling.ca/~nbr/technotes/graphics/traction.gif

[Xenonk]

CED has been ridiculed beyond all recognition...almost feel bad for the guy. my only reason for being a stickler is to help others who might be reading. i certainly dont know everything, just doing my part to stop misinformation from spreading (intentional or not)

you have a bmw also or just on the boards there? lots of great people who track in that crowd.


I totally understand where you are coming from (as I am trying to learn as much for myself), so I understand your concern as well about the misinformation.

I have a 1989 E30 that I will be running in www.specE30.com racing with NASA next year.. still working on "revitalizing" the car and finishing the cage on it... I dont post much on the BF boards namely because most of it has gone downhill..

[MDork]

cool...should be a lot of fun. i stopped posting on Bimmerforums a long time ago because the misinformation was so terrible. Roadfly is excellent for the m coupe crowd...not sure how it is for e30s.

sorry to take this OT...

[Xenonk]

It's still about the track days and learning from each other's experiences and thoughts.. I think running on LS should be one of those "gotta drive it" tracks on list. When I do make my US tour, I'll definitely hit up Infineon, Willow Springs, and Laguna Seca.

[RippinRoo]

It's still about the track days and learning from each other's experiences and thoughts...

Ya, I totally agree... I def appreciate the thoughts from folks on this forum... I know I have lots to learn!

[RippinRoo]

If you plan on using the GT a lot more for track events, you should go with the 2-piece. Currently I will be putting some abuse on the 1-pieces for now and see how long they can last.


Meh... I doubt I'll go to the track more than 4 (maybe 5) times a year... I'll keep the 1-piecers and put some abuse on them as well; we can both report our experiences... :)

Good description of trail-braking, MDork... very understandable. Thanks too for the friction circle graphic, Xenonk... very informative!! I think I do the trail-braking as well just out of habit... the transition from full brakes to no brakes then turn seems much to abrupt for my taste... I like the smoothness of transitioning from full brakes to less brakes plus turning and then transitioning to part throttle and turning, then full throttle... I'm sure you get what I mean. I have no idea if that's the "right" way to do it, but it sure feels a lot smoother.

[sandwood]

thanks guys, I think I understand it now

[Xenonk]

Meh... I doubt I'll go to the track more than 4 (maybe 5) times a year... I'll keep the 1-piecers and put some abuse on them as well; we can both report our experiences... :)

Good description of trail-braking, MDork... very understandable. Thanks too for the friction circle graphic, Xenonk... very informative!! I think I do the trail-braking as well just out of habit... the transition from full brakes to no brakes then turn seems much to abrupt for my taste... I like the smoothness of transitioning from full brakes to less brakes plus turning and then transitioning to part throttle and turning, then full throttle... I'm sure you get what I mean. I have no idea if that's the "right" way to do it, but it sure feels a lot smoother.


There's nothing wrong with what you are doing.. some people (even most) overdrive the car by driving out of the traction circle [which results to either understeer or oversteer, or both!]. While there are some people that will do the point-shoot method (safer as you are slowing so much down the straight, that any turning that you are doing is still going to respond and give you grip). Late apexing and the such will come to the typical method of heavy braking, turn-in and then gas it [and use throttle steering and unwinding the wheel when tracking out, it's like the anti-brake version of trail-braking].

There's also discussion of the classic line vs the parabolic line and how one can emphasize more using trail-braking while the other line theory can emphasize on point-shoot method... as one get a better understanding of line theory, one can utilize this knowledge and go even faster on the track.