Subaru H6 Twin Turbo MY06/07

[agctr]

Well have heard plenty of whispers about this but could it be media hype or real. Its anyones guess. I know that Seth and I have spoken about this engine and the possible output many many many times and we know that Subaru Japan and FHI have been playing with this combination for quite sometime with power figures around the 400+HP range.

Could this be a real proposition for 2006 / 2007, again its anyones guess but this could certainly but Subaru and STi into the big league. From information I have heard, something is brewing deep inside the belly of the Japanese Dragon.

Keep yr station tuned here.....
Ada///M.

[Han'sGT]

my luck...they will do it, but only offer it in Asia and Australia :mad:

[BDII]

my luck...they will do it, but only offer it in Asia and Australia :mad:
+1

i would buy the 2007 TT H6 in a heartbeat

[wukindada]

Until I see it....and know it is coming to the states I will not get my hopes ^....that being said, I would buy that car.....QUICKLY:eek:

[agctr]

Im sorry to say, it may only be a Japanese, Australian, New Zealand and European Project but Im sure that a LHD Conversion could be done. Just a lot of hype atm re this and just seems strange that questions have been asked and not the "USUAL" responses have been given.
Ada///M.

[Han'sGT]

I'm guessing if it were to hit the states we'd be looking at a 40K+ sticker. Too rich for my blood. :(

[wukindada]

IF SOA has the balls to bring it to the states it will sell! Even if it is priced @ 40k...that may be a little low...maybe 45k.
I wish SOA would put the question to the buyer....I will put my name on the dotted line for one.

[agctr]

I would just LOVE to know who makes these decisions and what they are based on because I have never seen a survey form, never even been asked a question re stuff like this, it is uninformed Jurno's that have no idea ? If a 120K+ Ferrari would sell, surely a 45+K H6TT would go down a treat on a GLOBAL scale.
Ada///M.

[BDII]

I think they could do it in the mid 30k range. i dont think they will bring it here, there is really no market for a 400hp 4 door sedan. the STi sells well, but other than the people on this board, there really wont be much interest in it.

[agctr]

James Bond 007.... never say never.
Ada///M.

[BDII]

James Bond 007.... never say never.
Ada///M.

I hope your right, that car is my wet dream

[wukindada]

SOA is getting 35K out of the Spec B now......:lol::lol: Yes they COULD make the car in that price range....I could have won that powerball....:)

[*Jedimaster*]

This has never been discussed before at all. I think Bigfoot is test driving the prototype right now. It's undergoing wet weather endurance with the Loch Ness Monster and a Chupacabra is testing paint quality. Rumor is the trunk monkey has been replaced with a Jersey Devil.

[agctr]

Well Jedi, yr behind the times mate. It has been discussed and I would say its been tested already in the current Liberty/Legacy format both in Japan and Australia.
Ada///M.

[*Jedimaster*]

Sarcasm>Adam :lol:

[biturbowagon]

There is a market: anyone who wants the performance of a BMW M5 but doesn't have that much $$$ to spend.

My guess is that if the H6 motor is turboed, the first recipient will be the Tribeca (albeit probably not at the 400 HP level).


I think they could do it in the mid 30k range. i dont think they will bring it here, there is really no market for a 400hp 4 door sedan. the STi sells well, but other than the people on this board, there really wont be much interest in it.

[agctr]

Thanks Jedi........

biturbowagon, I would say yr right, the test bed could be the Tribeca and then it will filter down into the LGT..... but curious if it will ever make it to the beloved WRX.
Ada///M.

[*Jedimaster*]

Adrock- I'm saying that we've talked about this before and that we'll likely never see it. There's a mythical one that everyone talks about supposedly running around in testing, but to my knowledge hasn't been confirmed.

[agctr]

It may never hit the States so I totally understand where you are coming from which I find Sad as Im sure it will sell like hotcakes. Prehaps the SpecB is a test in itself ???????
Ada///M.

[fzanetti]

Come on guys..

A 400+HP TT H6 for 40K+ is going to sell, and a lot... Just look at the numbers of those 400+HP cars, which will be faster than the new M3, S4 maybe RS4, and Nissan/Infiniti is bringing Skyline to the States, prob a tt 3.5 with ~400 hp as well, how much do you think they will sell that? 40K at least....

It just gets me (and everybody else too I believe) mad, that there are no surveys, no market research, nothing... STi badge is proven to be well seen in the industry, and well respected for performance and reliability, why not an even more powerful Legacy STi tt etc and all??????

SOA where are you to listen to your fellow buyers???

heheheheh

Fingers crossed for something like that, once the Spec B was just a joke, sorry guys if you have bought yours....

Flavio Zanetti
Boston, MA

[agctr]

Now there is a man that knows what he is talking about... well done Flavio.
Ada///M.

[fzanetti]

Cheers Adam..

Now we shall hope for good news!!!!!

Flavio Zanetti
Boston, MA

[heightsgtltd]

This has never been discussed before at all. I think Bigfoot is test driving the prototype right now. It's undergoing wet weather endurance with the Loch Ness Monster and a Chupacabra is testing paint quality. Rumor is the trunk monkey has been replaced with a Jersey Devil.

You had me at the Chupacabra testing paint quality...:lol: brings back memories of the X-files.

[*Jedimaster*]

Adam- you're right- we won't get it, I'm sure. Almost everything we get is a dilluted version of the good stuff. If the Spec B is a test, it's a poor one. I'd think about a 40-42K H6 twin turbo because it's obvious what you're getting. The Spec B doesn't even get any badging, which means most people won't know what it is at first glance. Aluminum suspension components, unique paint and some different wheels do NOT a premium model make. The red leather and little # XXX out of 500 badge is tacky. Best thing about it is the red gauges. It's just a poser car IMO.

[mattg]

kind of off the subject, but Jeff Perrin is going to debut his GT35 H-6 2006 STi @ SEMA. :D

[Brady]

As much of a skeptic I am, the 2.5 liter turbo was pretty well held back with tight lips until just before it was actually released. Subaru does a pretty good job of keeping secrets. I wouldn't be completely shocked if Subaru did this.

[BOXRPWR]

Nissan is already saying that the US-bound version of the Skyline GTR (3.5L V-6 TT) is going to be priced in the $70K range under the Infiniti brand name. Not the $40K range. So if Subaru ever did bring it over here, it would easily be in the very high $40s if not the low $50K range. Remember, the new 3-Series Bemmers are selling in the mid-$40s for just the regular 3.0 liters.

[ChrisK]

Will it ship with coupons for free tranny swaps every 10K miles?

[driggity]

kind of off the subject, but Jeff Perrin is going to debut his GT35 H-6 2006 STi @ SEMA. :D

Can't wait to see that car. Just seeing the engine was fun.

[red beast]

from 2003

350 hp

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enthusiasts/Spy_Shots/Spy_Shots_2004_Subaru_Legacy.S178.A5646.html

[pacbreak gt]

If Subaru puts the TTH6 in a wagon, will it only come with the auto tranny?:rolleyes:

[agctr]

Brady, U 2 speak words of wisdom well beyond your years...........

Unsure pacbreak gt. Im sure it will come with MT but it would have to be a bulletproof box.
Ada///M.

[pacbreak gt]

That would be great, but seriously, what would I do with a 400 HP wagon...?

[agctr]

Who ever said toooo much power was ever enough ?
Ada///M.

[PhilT]

Not only does this picture give a first glimpse of the redesigned Subaru Legacy, they also confirm rumors that Subaru will offer their all-new Legacy in a hot 350-HP STi (Subaru Technica International)


I don't see how that picture confirms anything, looks like exactly what we are all driving now.

[riscy]

I believe the last issue of Car and Driver said that the B9 is based on a previous show car that sported a TTH6 and that Subaru was in the process of developing it for the B9 application.

Assuming the weight isn't stoopid, it sure is nice to dream about it in the LGT :D

It saddens me to see SOA have such a consistently low self image (and corresponding low estimation of American tastes and desires). I know it's hard for the little guys to take big risks, but that's how greatness is made!

With the right marketing (which they certainly seem to be doing lately) and truly no compromises (like, where's my steering wheel radio controls?!?) they could easily sell $45K Legacy STis here. If Chrysler can sell 300M Hemis for $45K then anything's possible!

[agctr]

I think countries in the Pacific Rim will be trialled first and then the US and Europe will get a crack. Its just nice to be apart of Subaru Australia when they are serioulsy looking at upgrading like this. It still might be in the pipeline but what a pipeline it is.
Ada///M.

[rfd425]

i dont think they will bring it here, there is really no market for a 400hp 4 door sedan.

Call up your local BMW dealer and ask him how long the waiting list is for the new M5 or the E90 M3.

I agree that the USDM Spec B is not a very good test of Subaru's ability to sell an upgraded sport sedan. The suspension changes and tires are the only real performance upgrade to the Spec B. I would be more interested in it if they ditched the $2,000 navi (or made it an option), and instead gave the Spec B better brakes and a modest ECU reflash, up to, say, 275hp.

Also, since the Spec B is a limited edition, dealers are asking MSRP, whereas regular LGT's can easily be had for $1,000 under invoice. That makes the real price difference something like $8,000.

I think the TT H6 Legacy could be done for $39.9K, and if it were limited to, say, 1,000 units, dealers could get close to full price for them. It would certainly raise the profile of Subaru as a serious competitor to the BMW's and Audis of the world, which would give additional credibility to cars like the regular LGT and the WRX.

[Crucial Racing]

The B11S concept from a few years ago was rumored to be running a TT H6... Apparently GM had a twin turbo flat six going through emissions testing in Australia. The thought was that Subaru was having GM do the stuff so nobody would figure out that it was a Subaru engine...

According apparently to Subaru, a twin turbo H6 would ONLY be offered in an automatic tranny. Subaru does not currently make a manual transmission that they feel is capable of handling the kind of torque that engine would put out. The autos can easily be made to handle nearly as much power and torque as you want to make.

...there is really no market for a 400hp 4 door sedan...Well I definitely wouldn't say that at all! Mercedes is doing extremely well with their AMG line. Something like 40% of all current model year production cars with over 400hp belong to Mercedes, and at least half of those are 4 door. The M5 has always been a flagship model for BMW and the up-and-coming V8 M3 is supposed to have ~ 400 I believe. RS4 and RS6 from Audi. The supercharged Jag's are making like 390. I guess Bentley and RR don't really count even though they have 4-doors with a good 400 HP :cool:. Anyway I'm sure there are quite a few I didn't think of...

...BUT... how much do the cars listed above cost? Cheapest one is probably one of the AMG Mercedes at over $80,000... What if there were a Subaru as nice or nicer than the LGT Limited with over 400 HP and gobs of torque (plus AWD, of course :) ) that was half that price? Sounds like a winner!

Jeremy

[wukindada]

Who just purchased GM's shares of Heavy Fuji....Toyota:) Toyota is said to be introducing a "performance automatic tranny" AHEM.....8 speed:eek:
Again if this TT H6 "PIPE DREAM" Does come true....does come to the states....I will def be on the wating list:)

[fzanetti]

If Subaru puts the TTH6 in a wagon, will it only come with the auto tranny?:rolleyes:

Hahahahahaha

Probably yes...

SOA - SHAME ON YOU!!!!!

Flavio Zanetti
Boston, MA

[iceman]

That would be great, but seriously, what would I do with a 400 HP wagon...?

From Car and Driver, 10/05, Mercedes E55 Wagon:
•The 0-to-60-mph acceleration of a Porsche 911 Carrera S.
•The quarter-mile time of a Ferrari 612 Scaglietti.
•The 0-to-150-mph time of a Chevrolet Corvette Z51 (a second quicker is okay, too).
•The cargo capacity of a luxury SUV—the Porsche Cayenne Turbo, only bigger.

I think if Mercedes can make their E55 beast into a uberwagon, why not a 400 HP Legacy for 1/2 the price?
I think there would be a market...

[ChrisK]

From Car and Driver, 10/05, Mercedes E55 Wagon:
•The 0-to-60-mph acceleration of a Porsche 911 Carrera S.
•The quarter-mile time of a Ferrari 612 Scaglietti.
•The 0-to-150-mph time of a Chevrolet Corvette Z51 (a second quicker is okay, too).
•The cargo capacity of a luxury SUV—the Porsche Cayenne Turbo, only bigger.

And the handling of....well, a 3700lb wagon. Oink!

Not so much an E55 problem as a Mercedes problem as a whole, of course.

[vet]

From Car and Driver, 10/05, Mercedes E55 Wagon:
•The 0-to-60-mph acceleration of a Porsche 911 Carrera S.
•The quarter-mile time of a Ferrari 612 Scaglietti.
•The 0-to-150-mph time of a Chevrolet Corvette Z51 (a second quicker is okay, too).
•The cargo capacity of a luxury SUV—the Porsche Cayenne Turbo, only bigger.

I think if Mercedes can make their E55 beast into a uberwagon, why not a 400 HP Legacy for 1/2 the price?
I think there would be a market...

How many E55 wagon's do they sell in this country a yr? - probably under 1,000. No way Subaru can afford to develop, test, certify, and produce a drivetrain for that kind of limited run. I just don't see Subaru going head to head with Porsche, AMG, BMW/M, Audi/S/RS models. If you ask M3 buyers if they would consider a Subaru with similar specs for less $$$ I don't think you'd get many takers - maybe 10-15%. Take the total number of ultra performance vehicles sold each year and multiply by 10-15% and that number is too low to justify development costs, plus its a big risk for Subaru. I'd love to see it, I just don't think there's much chance anytime soon.

[rfd425]

And the handling of....well, a 3700lb wagon. Oink!

Not so much an E55 problem as a Mercedes problem as a whole, of course.

Correction: the handling of a 4,100 lb. wagon (although I'm sure it's one of the best handling 4,100 lb. wagons out there). Audi/VW have the same problem as Mercedes; an Audi S4 weighs 3,800+ lbs., as does a Passat W8.

With lighter weight and the boxer layout, the Legacy with H6 TT could be a great-handling car if done properly.

[rfd425]

How many E55 wagon's do they sell in this country a yr? - probably under 1,000. No way Subaru can afford to develop, test, certify, and produce a drivetrain for that kind of limited run. I just don't see Subaru going head to head with Porsche, AMG, BMW/M, Audi/S/RS models. If you ask M3 buyers if they would consider a Subaru with similar specs for less $$$ I don't think you'd get many takers - maybe 10-15%. Take the total number of ultra performance vehicles sold each year and multiply by 10-15% and that number is too low to justify development costs, plus its a big risk for Subaru. I'd love to see it, I just don't think there's much chance anytime soon.

The E55 wagon is an $80,000 car, so it's sales numbers aren't really comparable (by the way, I'd guess they sell way less than 1,000 in the USA -- maybe 200.

I think Subaru could very easily attract buyers away from the Audi S cars, particularly as the latter get ever heavier and ever more expensive and no more reliable. There are a lot of guys on this board who previously had sporty Audis (like me). There are also a lot of Audi owners who don't even know that the 250hp turbo LGT exists.

Development costs should be based on worldwide sales, not USA sales. They don't need to reinvent an engine for this market, although there might be some differences in the overall package.

[Opie]

I'm told that this engine has already been EPA tested for the U.S. market...

[NHLEG]

Hey, if Volvo can build the V70R with a base price of UNDER $40k, why can't Subaru make a Legacy STi wagon or sedan for about the same price? My next car was going to be the V70R before Subaru announced the LGT in Detroit last year. I had even talked w/ my local dealer about the V70R one day when I had my XC70 in for service and, w/ the options I wanted, it was about $44k MSRP. Granted it isn't as fast in a straight line, but it is a Volvo which means it's a VERY nice car and the adjustable suspension and 5 levels of traction control make it quite a driver as well. Oh yeah, can't forget about the 235/45/17 PZero's a standard equiptment.

[fzanetti]

Hey, if Volvo can build the V70R with a base price of UNDER $40k, why can't Subaru make a Legacy STi wagon or sedan for about the same price? My next car was going to be the V70R before Subaru announced the LGT in Detroit last year. I had even talked w/ my local dealer about the V70R one day when I had my XC70 in for service and, w/ the options I wanted, it was about $44k MSRP. Granted it isn't as fast in a straight line, but it is a Volvo which means it's a VERY nice car and the adjustable suspension and 5 levels of traction control make it quite a driver as well. Oh yeah, can't forget about the 235/45/17 PZero's a standard equiptment.

Volvo's are very nice cars, not sure about the new one gimmicks, bunch of electronics, and you can verify that on all Volvo forums, ppl complain a lot about issues they have, so an extended warranty is a must on those cars.

Also, I am a previous Audi S model owner, and the maintenance costs were really killing me and everyone else who has had an Audi knows what I mean...

I really think SOA is loosing money and territory not building an even more powerful Legacy GT, STi call it whatever, to compete with more $$$ sport cars, and on top of it, the Subie reliability, which Benz, Audi, Volvo don't have it...

Just my thoughts....

Flavio Zanetti
Boston, MA

[fzanetti]

I'm told that this engine has already been EPA tested for the U.S. market...

Where did you get that info dude?????

Just curious...

Flavio Zanetti
Boston, MA

[FameMax]

Well, I mean what direction will the STi go? I personally think it will stay a 4cyl, they will prob make the 07 something like the 06 WRX, little increase in hp, but more tq and at lower RPMs (yes i know its low right now) I doubt the STi will ever be an H6

[rfd425]

I really think SOA is loosing money and territory not building an even more powerful Legacy GT, STi call it whatever, to compete with more $$$ sport cars, and on top of it, the Subie reliability, which Benz, Audi, Volvo don't have it...

+1

[ChruiSSer]

From what I've gathered, you won't see the H6 turbo'd in the Legacy, or in the Impreza. It doesn't make sense. Especially since Impreza's and Foresters come FROM Japan and the Legacy's, Outback's and Tribeca's are made in the U.S. It doesn't make sense. The EJ257 fits in the engine bay pretty snug as is. The 3.0L would be a nightmare turbo'd in there.

I think you'll see the legacy stay the same, maybe some sort of Spec B with increased power in a year or two. The STi might get an increase. Your GOING to see a turbo'd Tribeca model. Probably not for 2 years, but you will see one.... Also, the H6 will be in the new sedan they are developing. It probably won't be on sale till 2009 or even 2010. It will probably have the Turbo'd H6 that the Tribeca will get. I think you'll see at least 325+hp on that motor. It'll be a torque monster!

[sebberry]

I really don't think there will be that much of a problem getting a turbo H6 in the current Legacy.

The H6 engine is all of an inch longer than the H4, and there is plenty of room around the H4 to fit the plumbing in for the turbo.

While the Tribeca really needs a Turbo H6, I will be disappointed if it is just a light pressure one to bump the power to something actually usable. It better be a performance monster, then I'll buy one. (With a new front grille, of course)

Edit:

The H6T will likely never show up in a USDM Legacy - they haven't even figured out that the H6 NA would actually be a good seller in the Legacy sedan and Wagon...

[ChruiSSer]

The H6 is available in the "Legacy" as either the Outback Sedan or L.L.Bean Sedan, or the 3.0R or VDC or L.L.Bean Wagon. It will fit in the Legacy's.

[Tommyh]

The H6 is available in the "Legacy" as either the Outback Sedan or L.L.Bean Sedan, or the 3.0R or VDC or L.L.Bean Wagon. It will fit in the Legacy's.

I'm guessing that he ment the actual Legacy, like you and I drive. Most other parts of the world the Spec B is powered by the N/A H6 IIRC.

[BigT]

Not to discredit you guys, but didn't SOA just lay out a bunch of money and effort in revamping the legacy, and the WRX. They also updated all of their models, and introduced a brand new model. I suspect that in terms of time frame for a more powerfully packed Legacy we are talking about more than two or three years. The fact is that although we love our Subarus, and their sales have increased they still don't have a large hold on the car market in the US. I think that they should, however the import market is swamped with overpriced maximas and camrys. From a business point of view Subaru would have to see a steady increase in sales over at least a 4 year period before they would even think about bringing a Legacy Sti over. Remember if they brought one over how many of us would have taken out an extra loan and got that one instead of our current cars, thereby decreasing the market for our cars. They want to be able to sustain both cars in the current market, and right now they can't. So it looks like we're gonna have to grow up with this car and maybe get a Legacy Sti in the next generation. (2010-2015)

[fzanetti]

Very wise comments BigT, but I still believe that there is still market for a 400-450hp sedan/wagon in the US, even if we were talking 200-500/year sales... Look at M3's, Audi RS4's, Mercedes AMG models, they sell (and not a few only), why? Because of their names, labels, yeah right labels, ppl who buy those cars, look primarily at their brand, then at the car they are buying (specs, features etc), that's why a lot of those customers, buy brand new cars, use them for a few years and go back to the dealership and trade in for a brand new one...

Anyways, let's keep our fingers crossed and hope for the next couple of years, they do bring some new and more powerful and modern machines here to the States....

Flavio Zanetti
Boston, MA

[rfd425]

I agree with Flavio. The Legacy STI (or whatever) doesn't even have to necessarily be profitable on its own, because it could have a valuable marketing effect for the whole Subaru brand. Let the car mags test one and rave about it, and suddenly the LGT becomes the little brother of a supercar. Even people with 2.5i's could get a body kit and wheels, and feel like their car is related to the great Legacy STI. It would also be a showcase for Subaru's performance engineering prowess. It would recast Subaru in the public eye as a true performance brand to be reckoned with, instead of a maker of solid, utilitarian people-movers.

[fzanetti]

I agree with Flavio. The Legacy STI (or whatever) doesn't even have to necessarily be profitable on its own, because it could have a valuable marketing effect for the whole Subaru brand. Let the car mags test one and rave about it, and suddenly the LGT becomes the little brother of a supercar. Even people with 2.5i's could get a body kit and wheels, and feel like their car is related to the great Legacy STI. It would also be a showcase for Subaru's performance engineering prowess. It would recast Subaru in the public eye as a true performance brand to be reckoned with, instead of a maker of solid, utilitarian people-movers.

Exactly,

This is how Audi established itself as a performance oriented brand, bringing the S and RS line to the public, where those cars were initially designed to win Le Mans, Rally competitions, etc and all....

And it did work, look at Audi today!!! We all have seen that commercial (at least the ones 28+ years old hehehe), where a guy is driving and he sees the 4 rings, and immidiately he moves to the right lane to let the Audi pass him, therefore a symbol of speed and sportiveness...:)

;-)

IMHO this should be a path SOA would be profitting a lot from....

My 2 cents heehhehe

Flavio Zanetti
Boston, MA

[wukindada]

After owning an Audi now I know why the guy moves over in the commercial...so his wallet doesn't get swiped by the guy in the Audi blowing past him...on the way to the Service Dept:eek:
AudiS4 Very fun car....until the warranty run's out!

[fzanetti]

After owning an Audi now I know why the guy moves over in the commercial...so his wallet doesn't get swiped by the guy in the Audi blowing past him...on the way to the Service Dept:eek:
AudiS4 Very fun car....until the warranty run's out!

Hahhaahhahaah

I know your feelings man, I have owned a couple of Audi models, (A4, TT, S4) and currently still own an A6 2.8 Quattro with 79K miles - howeve I am still coverred by Audi Assured Warranty until 100K miles... hehehehehehehe

Flavio Zanetti
Boston, MA

[BigT]

FZANETTI: Does that mean that your gonna start taking our wallets in 21K miles?

[rfd425]

Count me in as a member of Audi Anonymous!

[fzanetti]

FZANETTI: Does that mean that your gonna start taking our wallets in 21K miles?

The car is for sale by the way!!! heheheeheh Awesome vehicle, perfect for cruising, traveling, etc heheeheheh

Flavio Zanetti
Boston, MA

[turboliberty]

IMO, Subaru should offer a fully loaded 5 passenger 370hp H6-TT B9 Tribeca with 19 inch polished BBS wheels, a sport tuned suspension, DVD and Navi, and mesh grilles in place of those chrome horizontal bars. Put it up against the X5 4.8is and the Benz ML500 and price it in the 45k range. Subaru may/will not do it, but it would certainly put them on the premium brand map.

As for the Legacy line I would suspect that maybe we'll see that new TPH (Turbo Parallel Hybrid) powerplant in a GT or Outback before we see a Legacy H6-TT.

[SUBE555]

http://homepage.mac.com/futureofx/.Pictures/HOST/SubaruMovement.jpg

[SUBE555]

I think that little diagram I made a couple months ago says it all for Subaru. And the Spec B is not the Legacy STI as we all know and have noted.

I also believe there is such a market for a car like a Legacy STI. The American market however basically requires the 6-cylinder, and to get the desired 120hp/L or more power levels, forced induction is basically a requirement unless they rewrite their formula on the engine systems (which I think needs to be done sooner than later with direct injection and camless valvetrains as large diesel trucks and even some cars will have around the 2007 calendar timeframe.) As others have noted, other manufacturers are producing prestegeous amounts of power and can harness it, but in general there is serious compromises. Either it's comfort, performance, price, whatever, nobody has a winning package that's reasonable, comfortable, quick, and agile all at the same time. I think a Legacy STI has the right platform to start from and is much lighter than the much higher esteemed models as well. If weight figures of around 3400 lbs or slightly more could be achieved, I believe there is a good start. Much of the performance goodies to help it perform and stick to the road are already available including the Brembo stoppers, good lightweight suspension links/bars/springs and Bilstein dampers, the transmission solution and engine are the only real questions. To me the only way I'd take it is with a DSG-type of transmission or manual H-pattern tranny with 3 good diffs, and I could omit the drivers controlled center diff too. A turbocharged, 3.0L direct injection H6 would be premium if you ask me. Direct injection helps in several ways. Forget tumble generator valves, increase compression possible, better efficiency, better emissions, better economy- it all helps in various ways.

We've all see how much goodies come on the new Mazdaspeed 6, why can't these things like HID be options at least? It's becoming somewhat commonplace. I'd take HID's and leave NAV as an option that I'd not elect to get.

Seriously though, there is a formula to making this work and whomever noted how Audi did it, Subaru can do it too. How many of us remember the days of the old Audi 5000 and such, man I didn't look at them much better than any other car, now look at Audi some 15-20 years later, what a difference. While I don't think Subaru will rise to quite that level nor do I think they should as they serve best in the current segments and perhaps also moving into just slightly higher positions as well as market allows, I can see many similarities in quality changes, etc.

Just my opinions. ...And if I ever finish up that letter to SoA, I've only been working on it for months and months, I just never find an itteration I like, lol. I'm too much of a detail oriented individual. :lol:

[fzanetti]

I think that little diagram I made a couple months ago says it all for Subaru. And the Spec B is not the Legacy STI as we all know and have noted.

I also believe there is such a market for a car like a Legacy STI. The American market however basically requires the 6-cylinder, and to get the desired 120hp/L or more power levels, forced induction is basically a requirement unless they rewrite their formula on the engine systems (which I think needs to be done sooner than later with direct injection and camless valvetrains as large diesel trucks and even some cars will have around the 2007 calendar timeframe.) As others have noted, other manufacturers are producing prestegeous amounts of power and can harness it, but in general there is serious compromises. Either it's comfort, performance, price, whatever, nobody has a winning package that's reasonable, comfortable, quick, and agile all at the same time. I think a Legacy STI has the right platform to start from and is much lighter than the much higher esteemed models as well. If weight figures of around 3400 lbs or slightly more could be achieved, I believe there is a good start. Much of the performance goodies to help it perform and stick to the road are already available including the Brembo stoppers, good lightweight suspension links/bars/springs and Bilstein dampers, the transmission solution and engine are the only real questions. To me the only way I'd take it is with a DSG-type of transmission or manual H-pattern tranny with 3 good diffs, and I could omit the drivers controlled center diff too. A turbocharged, 3.0L direct injection H6 would be premium if you ask me. Direct injection helps in several ways. Forget tumble generator valves, increase compression possible, better efficiency, better emissions, better economy- it all helps in various ways.

We've all see how much goodies come on the new Mazdaspeed 6, why can't these things like HID be options at least? It's becoming somewhat commonplace. I'd take HID's and leave NAV as an option that I'd not elect to get.

Seriously though, there is a formula to making this work and whomever noted how Audi did it, Subaru can do it too. How many of us remember the days of the old Audi 5000 and such, man I didn't look at them much better than any other car, now look at Audi some 15-20 years later, what a difference. While I don't think Subaru will rise to quite that level nor do I think they should as they serve best in the current segments and perhaps also moving into just slightly higher positions as well as market allows, I can see many similarities in quality changes, etc.

Just my opinions. ...And if I ever finish up that letter to SoA, I've only been working on it for months and months, I just never find an itteration I like, lol. I'm too much of a detail oriented individual. :lol:

Very well written man......

Please finish up that letter!!!!

Hehehehe

Flavio Zanetti
Boston, MA

[agctr]

Yeah damn....... FINISH IT.....................

Flavio, that letter has been in the making for months. When Seth finally does get it finished, it will be a well polished piece that should hopefully make, not only SoA sit up and take notice, but the rest of the entire Subaru company globally.

Again Flavio, you have some really well thought about comments in this thread, pleasure to read.
Ada///M.

[red beast]

update

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-10/423426/SubaruMovement1.jpg

[andrew.anderson]

I would buy a 350hp-450hp Twin Turbo H6 Subaru even if it had an auto. Obviouslly a manual would be prefered but a TT H6 Subaru is cool no matter what transmission you have.

[JonFo]

I think all this TT H6 is nice talk, but we will never see it. Here’s why:

Subaru needs to reinforce its image as a technology innovator and be seen as slightly ‘different’. One more large displacement boosted gas burner is not how to do that. They want to impress with brains, not brawn.

Don’t mean they won’t deliver something that can go fast. But remember, Gas has been/will be >$3Gal in the US, so a 17MPG TT H6 Subaru is a non-starter, not matter what.

Therefore, I predict our next 300 to 400hp Subaru will be a hybrid drive train system, more than likely coupling a Turbo 2.5 (current GT motor) powering the front wheels along with an electric rear wheel drive, eliminating the center diff and driveshaft for some weight savings and efficiency gains.

The current Subaru TPH is nice for the econobox mileage wars, but alone will not deliver the kind of power Subaru will need to compete with something like a Honda DualNote (look it up, that’s a 400hp hybrid concept).

Still the dream Legacy STI/h (for hybrid) would have a TPH drive on the front, electric rear, some great super capacitors and a very slick hybrid ECU/power controller.
Ship that in Wagon form, and I’m all over it.

[Jon [in CT]]

Subaru has a two-pronged strategy for its models, which is illustrated in this slide from May, 2004.
http://tinypic.com/fc8h37.jpg

At that point in time, Subaru had not yet named the B9 Tribeca. The initial Tribeca is intended to compete against the base versions of the BMW X5, Volvo XC90. Prior to the introduction of the Tribeca, every Subaru model line had a high performance version (even the Baja). I believe Subaru intends to add a high performance version of the Tribeca, too, so that it can compete against all versions of the BMW X5, Volvo XC90 and even the Audi Q7. The only powerplant that I can envision which could be available in the immediate future for such a role is the twin-turbo EZ30.

[SUBE555]

For schizzle me nizzle, Jon has migrated. :) Nice seeing you around Jon.

While I know a lot even the mfgs take a lot of stock in hybrid technology, I'm not on quite the same page as many of them because for one reason, they're trying to band-aid the internal combustion engines inefficiencies instead of trying to improve that part additional to hybrid. Yes, it would be venturing into new territory leaving cams, throttle bodies, and port fuel injection to collect dust, but I believe it needs to be done and sooner than later. Much of the technology is already available, it's just manufacturers still resting on their laurals, not wanting to invest in something that could potentially kick off sales if efficiencies and power outputs prove the technology useful while also being reliable. I could more than live with a naturally aspirated Legacy STI with an EZ30R if it was capable of producing 300-340hp, near 300ft-lbs and weighing in at 3400lbs or less. I think they could do it as well. Given the abilities of camless technology, which is reliable, with infinite amounts of valve lift, duration, and seating speeds, an engine can be tuned for greater reduction in emissions with increased fuel economy and at the same time produce a good bit more torque as well as more top-end power. The rotating mass that is the cams and valvetrain would be replaced by solenoid-controlled valves and a slightly larger alternator, thus taking out additonal rotating mass and mass in general. The throttle body can be removed as well due to the valves able to now control flow independantly with sophisticated programming leading to greater flow on the inlet side. Direct injection allows for much greater control over the combustion process injecting fuel in the compression cycle just prior to the combustion cycle. Compression can be increased for greater efficiency and emissions can be greatly reduced as richer conditions need not be used as heavily for the safety of the engine and lesser tendencies for detonation.

I believe through a combination of technologies the best of efficiency available in the current form of the internal combustion engine can be had, on one side very low emissions with a very noticeable increase in fuel economy, and at the same time more power available upon demand. Yes, the electronic tuning will be more complex, but for good reasons. The cams are the biggest crutch of the modern internal combustion engine (aside friction losses and the rotating mass constantly changing directions), however, the cams which are designed to run a certain way can be replaced in favor of a system that is quite possibly less costly to produce and has a much broader ability set with seemingly infinite amounts of tuning ability.

I believe it would be in Subaru's best interest for R&D funding and manufacturing costs to produce a new engine formula, containing several new technologies at the same time. They could push through their C/Ns and propogate engineering changes all at the same time once technolgies tested and proven versus compromising several times with several major redesigns, especially since much of the work would be in the cylinder heads already. It only makes the most sense and actually producing these technolgies first in a higher-performance model with a lower production run would allow Subaru to make sure the technology is proven to handle higher loads and conditions and thus is more than suitable for the mainstream vehicles.

Now that is just my opinion on engine technoligies, but I think that is the way things should be done and for those reasons.

I also believe that a Legacy STI could be a dual-personality vehicle due to this. Like BMW and their M mode, you could push a button and the center diff goes to a default performance mode, the engine sharpens up from it's economy mode to power mode (hence the best of both worlds) producing far more power and torque than is believed possible in a street car 3.0L N/A model. I wouldn't mind even seeing the suspension tighten up with an M type of mode. Like I said best of both worlds, very streetable and also very sporty, I wouldn't imagine what wouldn't be to love in this formula impressed upon an already great chassis.

I also sure wouldn't flinch at being a tester to this first year model. They back their product, I'm more than happy to help prove the technology works.

Once you can prove this technology works, I believe the next important steps are hybrid and reducing vehicle body weight as much as possible through new materials and technologies.

[agctr]

Seriously I believe for years mgfs could have tightened up their fuel economies of the engines but a very large degree. Only now have they been forced to move in this direction, hence the move to hybrid technologies. I believe that efficiencies can be found within the current engine configuration BUT will the mgfs spend the money on R&D to find them?

If they were to go with the way Seth has described above, I believe they would/could certainly take the market by storm. To have an engine capable of 400HP with the econmical benefit of a hybrid, I ask you, who wouldnt buy.

But this comes down to where the mgfs see their market, in hybrid technology or current engines with massive fuel economy. You have to ask the question, if these fuel efficiences have come onboard now, why wern't they brought online a long long time ago......? I think we all know the answer to this one... sadly.
Ada///M.

[andrew.anderson]

']Subaru has a two-pronged strategy for its models, which is illustrated in this slide from May, 2004.


At that point in time, Subaru had not yet named the B9 Tribeca. The initial Tribeca is intended to compete against the base versions of the BMW X5, Volvo XC90. Prior to the introduction of the Tribeca, every Subaru model line had a high performance version (even the Baja). I believe Subaru intends to add a high performance version of the Tribeca, too, so that it can compete against all versions of the BMW X5, Volvo XC90 and even the Audi Q7. The only powerplant that I can envision which could be available in the immediate future for such a role is the twin-turbo EZ30.

I agree, If you are indeed correct and SOA plans on adding a performance version of the Tribecca a TT H6 would be the only current option to up the performance.

[The B4]

I agree, If you are indeed correct and SOA plans on adding a performance version of the Tribecca a TT H6 would be the only current option to up the performance.

not necessarily...the STI's engine on the tribeca would be plenty.

single turbo onthe H6 would be plenty as well.

[andrew.anderson]

not necessarily...the STI's engine on the tribeca would be plenty.

single turbo onthe H6 would be plenty as well.

How well would the STi engine work though since the Tribeca does weigh over 4200 lbs. For a vehicle weighing that much wouldn't it place a significant amount of strain on the small H4 to pull around that much weight. Not that the H4 could not do it but if you are looking at engine life it would be a smart move to place a larger engine in which you would not have to be pushed as hard to get the same or similar performance thus increasing the engine life and realiability?

Is that not correct?

[rfd425]

How well would the STi engine work though since the Tribeca does weigh over 4200 lbs. For a vehicle weighing that much wouldn't it place a significant amount of strain on the small H4 to pull around that much weight. Not that the H4 could not do it but if you are looking at engine life it would be a smart move to place a larger engine in which you would not have to be pushed as hard to get the same or similar performance thus increasing the engine life and realiability?

Is that not correct?
I'd have to agree with Mr. A on this one. I think the STi engine would constantly be well into boost just in normal daily driving. There shouldn't be any packaging problems with the H6, so why not? A single turbo might be enough, but two smaller parallel turbos would probably make for better drivability.

[fzanetti]

I'd have to agree with Mr. A on this one. I think the STi engine would constantly be well into boost just in normal daily driving. There shouldn't be any packaging problems with the H6, so why not? A single turbo might be enough, but two smaller parallel turbos would probably make for better drivability.

Come on guys, 2 smaller turbos 9~12 psi could easily increase the horsepower from 250-350 or even more... What is SOA waiting?????

A more powerfull, bigger wheels, sporty suspension, more embracing seats and maybe some body small mods, they could easily sell it for 40~45K and beat the BMW X5 4.8i, Audi Q7, ML55 AMG, etc...

Doing a market analysis:

BMW X5 4.8is:
355hp V8
0-60 5.8 secs (Price ~72K)

ML55 AMG:
345hp V8
0-60 6.4 (last year of production 2003)

Mercedes G55 AMG
469hp supercharged V8
0-60 5.5 secs (but this vehicle costs more than 100K+)

Porsche:
Cayenne S:
340 hp V8
0-60 6.8 secs (Price ~57K)

Cayenne Turbo:
450 hp V8 Turbo
0-60 5.2 secs (Price ~92K)

And in the future:

Audi Q7 Hybrid
500 hp
0-60 under 6.5 (Price not less than 60K I guess)

So tell me guys!!!

What is SOA waiting??????????????????????????????????????????? ???????

Flavio Zanetti
Boston, MA

[SUBE555]

Guys, you have to think beyond the simple numbers and look at what is really involved here on a technical side of things. One can say it's very easy to incorporate these things, but it's not quite that easy. It's actually very easy to even design the components, piping, routings, I know I'm a mechanical designer, however, placing these components placed accurately to improve the CG of the vehicle with respect to the inertia of each component and their assemblys and even more importantly how each affects the tuning of the vehicle and therefore emissions and fuel economy (as all need to be taken into account) are very crucial factors. It's easy to say throw them in, even as an aftermarket vendor to do, but for an OEM it's very complicated and complex with heaps of paperwork and work to try and make the systems as cost effective shaving pennies here and dollars there.

So as much as you'd like to see one, I'm with ya'll, but realize it's easier to say than actually do.

[agctr]

I certainly agree with yr last statement that is for sure Seth. The complexities of getting a working model off the ground is a lot harder than it sounds. A dedicated project team would need to take much R&D expenditure to get a working model and this may take some period of time. BUT the advances and knowledge gained I believe would far out weigh the cost in both the short and long term.
Ada///M.

[SUBE555]

In my best estimations, it would take a team of about 4 proficient designers/engineers about 4 months to accurately design and detail a twin-turbo H6 setup, figure 8-16 weeks for prototype parts depending on availability, then testing and tuning, writing the software often seems to be a very long and tedious process, so from start to finish of such a project, I would gather something of 9-12 months at best case, including limited testing in various conditions like the test cars we've seen in Alaska, ya'll remember those pictures of the powertrain in a BE chassis Legacy?

Yes, Adam, it has to be proven that these advances will both save the mfg costs and will help increase sales. It's harder to prove these points worth over anything. A case must be made for every change, and that change is directly related to how the producer and it's shareholders will benefit.

[ChrisK]

Flavio, you're overlooking one simple fact: People won't pay $45K for a Subaru. Yes, I know many people HERE will, but we are a sliver of a minority.

Look at what has happened to Volkswagen with the Phaeton, and their attempt to move upscale in general. Why would someone buy a $50K Volkswagen when they could buy a $55K Mercedes? People buying cars in this price range are mainly out for "refinement" (read: brand identity), and $5K isn't going to help their lease payments enough to offset their loss of prestige from driving a mere Subaru.

[rfd425]

Flavio, you're overlooking one simple fact: People won't pay $45K for a Subaru. Yes, I know many people HERE will, but we are a sliver of a minority
They might not overnight, but the brand equity can be built up to the point where people would consider it as a value proposition to be able to buy a $40-45K M3 fighter.

Fifteen years ago, no one would have expected Toyota to be able to sell a car like the Avalon. And while the Phaeton might not be a huge seller, VW manages to sell plenty of $45K+ Touaregs, when the Mercedes M-class is available in the same price range.

The other factor is that many buyers of these so-called prestige brands are sick and tired of poor reliability. There are a lot of people who pay $40-50K for Audi A4/S4's which are basically the same size as the LGT, and those buyers should be an easy target market for Subaru. The LGT is the first step in taking a bite out of Audi's core market, and it appears to be working, judging by the number of former Audi owners on this board.

[riscy]

I agree...

Keep in mind that:
a) Subaru already sells a lot of fairly expensive cars to some fairly upscale clientelle
b) They've been on a market up-branding program for several years already -- and it's working (see a)
c) Subaru has nothing so mundane as the Beetle or Rabbit to overcome in their history (let alone their name being "peoples' car"!)

SoA sells plenty of >$30K cars in this country already and the leap to $40K - $45K would not take them into particularly rarified air. I admit they couldn't go much beoyond that at present, but they'd nee dto get a few models in that range to even try. A no-compromise $45K H6TT and a $40K LGT STi would start nicely -- and sell.

Often, the best way to convince people that something is exceptional is to price it accordingly -- in our society something expensive automatically becomes desirable/classy by its increased "worth" and "prestige" (see Hummer -- they'd be everywhere, for that exact reason, if gas was still $1.25/gal).

This hasn't worked for VolskWagon because the very people they're trying to sell to are those that remember them as cheap: Hey baby-boomer, remember that '62 Beetle dune buggy you drove? The Phaeton is just like that -- only shiny, and, um you'll look really important, so give me, say, $70K?"

Reasonable increments and plausibility are the keys! I think it could work (so that means it must http://www.legacygt.com/forums/images/smilies/icon_tongue.gif).

[SUBE555]

rfd425, you do make a compelling point there, particularly on the side of reliability. How many people have we seen around here that have had Audi A4's and S4's? A number. Why? Reliability appears to be a major reason.

Personally I think it would take quite a bit to prove that $40-45k is a viable price point for a Legacy STI, I do however think $35-40k however is a viable price point, right about the 37-38k well equipped being the focused point in my opinion. The reason I find it difficult is concerning it's given the 2.5GT's current content, the Spec B's and that of it's nearest competition the MS6 which includes more than both of the aforementioned models. A Legacy STI would however gain Brembo brakes and BBS wheels as well as probably a greater level of engine complexity, however I still don't see the viability of offering such a model for greater than $40k though I am surprised with the desire of the Spec B models which seem to be be getting soaked up rather quickly.

[The B4]

How well would the STi engine work though since the Tribeca does weigh over 4200 lbs. For a vehicle weighing that much wouldn't it place a significant amount of strain on the small H4 to pull around that much weight. Not that the H4 could not do it but if you are looking at engine life it would be a smart move to place a larger engine in which you would not have to be pushed as hard to get the same or similar performance thus increasing the engine life and realiability?

Is that not correct?


i don't think so at all

A tribeca weighs anywhere from 400-600 lbs more than an outback depending on model. The outback xt definitely has power to spare. The sti's drivetrain is more than ample to support the Tribeca if the gearing was made longer.

The Tribeca has no problem cruising...or normal acceleration. It just needs help when the pedal has to be mashed for whatever reason. H6 TT seems overboard in my opinion.

[ChrisK]

Look at why Subaru was successful with the STi: it is an affordable car that has outstanding performance. If the STi were in the same price range as the M3 or Corvette, people would be flocking to them instead of the STi.

I think Subaru has to follow the same model with an upmodel Legacy. Outstanding performance, built not with sports car margins, but sedan margins. If the Legacy STi cost the same as the S4, it would be a difficult decision. If it were priced at $35K (certainly doable with Subaru's current hardwre) it would be a great deal, a no-brainer, just like the WRX STi is over any number of >$30K cars at its performance level.

I agree that Subaru CAN build itself into an upscale brand, but they have to do so by offering quality for LESS than anybody else. Just like Lexus did when they started out. Nobody's going to buy a luxo Subaru for the same price as another luxury make.

[rfd425]

^^^I more or less agree, but I think they could go to $39K for a legitimate Legacy STi easily, and maybe even low $40's. You can't really get an M3 or S4 off the lot for under $50K anymore.

[Brady]

The story behind Volkswagen and not being able to build into a luxury brand is still reliability. Note that the Passat, for all intents and purposes their "flagship" vehicle (as the general public is unaware of the Phaeton's existance), is ranked among the worst cars sold in america in terms of reliability. I believe it was recently reported that soemthing like 73 out of 100 Passats were seen in the dealership for mechanical problems in the first 1 or 2 years of ownership! That is astounding.

Volkswagen is a marketing machine selling a lifestyle to the yuppie wannabe set. Look at their ads and you'll know who their customers are. You'll never see someone over 30 driving one of their cars in an ad. Furthermore, VW sells style and technogadgetry over safety and reliability (air conditioned glove box?). The closest they come to selling reliability is their "german engineered" tag-line they throw on everything, which, in recent years, we all have learned to be a real farce for cars from the German market (I'm looking at you Daimler and Audi!). Volkswagens are crap, and the people buying them admittedly aren't even comparing them to anything else ... they say they saw it in a commercial or a friend told them to get one, and they do.

Subaru on the other hand has a reputation built on reliability. And in recent years have received accolades for the performance they've infused in their vehicles. I don't think it's a huge leap to drive up the image of the brand to premium status much as Audi did. People might not pay $45,000 for a Subaru right now, but then again just 5 years ago, who would have thought that Subaru could command over $30,000 on a few of their cars. The L.L. Bean and VDC were viewed as way overpriced "for a Subaru." Now they seem to be priced in-line with some very popular models. Just something to consider.

[biturbowagon]

There are a lot of people who pay $40-50K for Audi A4/S4's which are basically the same size as the LGT, and those buyers should be an easy target market for Subaru. The LGT is the first step in taking a bite out of Audi's core market, and it appears to be working, judging by the number of former Audi owners on this board.

Actually, the LGT is closer in size to a VW Passat or Audi A6 than an A4/S4. I think you can figure out how I know. :icon_tong

Re former Audi owners: you make a good point.

[The B4]

Actually, the LGT is closer in size to a VW Passat or Audi A6 than an A4/S4. I think you can figure out how I know. :icon_tong

Re former Audi owners: you make a good point.


That is just simply not true...

The Legacy is close to the Passat size...that is only because the Passat is the MUCH closer to the size of an A4 than an A6

the Legacy is A4/Passat sized.

The A6 is 5 series/TL-RL/M35-45

[rfd425]

That is just simply not true...

The Legacy is close to the Passat size...that is only because the Passat is the MUCH closer to the size of an A4 than an A6

the Legacy is A4/Passat sized.
I gotta side with B4 on this one. There's something about the shape of the Passat that makes it look bigger than it is, but it really is about the same size as the B5 (1996-2001) A4. When I was considering Passats briefly to replace my '98 A4, I parked the A4 right next to a Passat, and I was surprised that the two cars were almost exactly the same size. That goes for both overall length and wheelbase. The A6, on the other hand, is a considerably bigger car.

As for the LGT, it does seem to have marginally more rear seat room than my old A4, but it is slightly smaller than the Accord that I park next to every day.

[mycl]

Speaking about Passat's ....

I saw an article talking about possible plans to build a VW Passat R GT.

Twin turbo 3.2 L V6, with AWD. 575 HP. Hint hint ... subaru ;)

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/vw-passat-r-gt.htm

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/images/vw-r-gt-passat-4.jpg

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/images/vw-r-gt-passat-3.jpg

[fzanetti]

Thanks for sending that out Mycl!!!!!

Great article, and a definitely a WAKE UP SOA!!!!!!!

Flavio Zanetti
Boston, MA

[pdw]

I gotta side with B4 on this one. There's something about the shape of the Passat that makes it look bigger than it is, but it really is about the same size as the B5 (1996-2001) A4. When I was considering Passats briefly to replace my '98 A4, I parked the A4 right next to a Passat, and I was surprised that the two cars were almost exactly the same size. That goes for both overall length and wheelbase. The A6, on the other hand, is a considerably bigger car.

As for the LGT, it does seem to have marginally more rear seat room than my old A4, but it is slightly smaller than the Accord that I park next to every day.

You need to look at the specs. The B5 A4 has a wheelbase of 103", B5 Passat 106" and the A6 is 108". The B5 Passat has a lot more room in the back seat than a B5 A4. The '06 Passat has the exact same wheelbase as the B5 though, having sat in it, it does have more room inside.

I owned a '98 A4 and my wife still drives a '99 Passat. The rear seat in the LGT is significantly better than the A4's.

[pdw]

The story behind Volkswagen and not being able to build into a luxury brand is still reliability. Note that the Passat, for all intents and purposes their "flagship" vehicle (as the general public is unaware of the Phaeton's existance), is ranked among the worst cars sold in america in terms of reliability. I believe it was recently reported that soemthing like 73 out of 100 Passats were seen in the dealership for mechanical problems in the first 1 or 2 years of ownership! That is astounding.

Volkswagen is a marketing machine selling a lifestyle to the yuppie wannabe set. Look at their ads and you'll know who their customers are. You'll never see someone over 30 driving one of their cars in an ad. Furthermore, VW sells style and technogadgetry over safety and reliability (air conditioned glove box?). The closest they come to selling reliability is their "german engineered" tag-line they throw on everything, which, in recent years, we all have learned to be a real farce for cars from the German market (I'm looking at you Daimler and Audi!). Volkswagens are crap, and the people buying them admittedly aren't even comparing them to anything else ... they say they saw it in a commercial or a friend told them to get one, and they do.

Subaru on the other hand has a reputation built on reliability. And in recent years have received accolades for the performance they've infused in their vehicles. I don't think it's a huge leap to drive up the image of the brand to premium status much as Audi did. People might not pay $45,000 for a Subaru right now, but then again just 5 years ago, who would have thought that Subaru could command over $30,000 on a few of their cars. The L.L. Bean and VDC were viewed as way overpriced "for a Subaru." Now they seem to be priced in-line with some very popular models. Just something to consider.

Reliability has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's not like Mercedes reliability is any better than VW. The reason is their dealer network sucks and the market is just too crowded. The Phaeton competes directly with the A8 which competes directly with the 7-series and S-class. If VW was smart, they would keep their current position of trying to sell vehicles that are at a small premium over Hondas and Toyotas in terms of price and features. If they then get their reliability up, they'll be doing well.

BTW, I disagree on VW's safety. They may be unreliable but they're very safe and solid cars. VW and Audi are, IMO, the biggest automotive tragedy out there. The only thing wrong with them is their reliability (and more recently price) but that's so bad that I wouldn't buy one. From a design standpoint, they're great.

[The B4]

You need to look at the specs. The B5 A4 has a wheelbase of 103", B5 Passat 106" and the A6 is 108". The B5 Passat has a lot more room in the back seat than a B5 A4. The '06 Passat has the exact same wheelbase as the B5 though, having sat in it, it does have more room inside.

I owned a '98 A4 and my wife still drives a '99 Passat. The rear seat in the LGT is significantly better than the A4's.


I pulled up the RL, TL, 5 series, Legacy, A4, A6, and Passat in a side by side comparison before writing my post...

considering wheelbase, interior, and exterior dimensions...my ascertation was correct.

[andrew.anderson]

Speaking about Passat's ....

I saw an article talking about possible plans to build a VW Passat R GT.

Twin turbo 3.2 L V6, with AWD. 575 HP. Hint hint ... subaru ;)

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/vw-passat-r-gt.htm

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/images/vw-r-gt-passat-4.jpg

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/images/vw-r-gt-passat-3.jpg

That is actually pretty cool. I don't particulary like VW's but from the article that car looks pretty nice.

[IwannaSportSedan]

575hp from 3.2 liters with 2 turbos? Holy schnikies! is that at 1.4 Bar? that is a lot of horsepower for that displacement, even with turbos.

375 I would expect. 475 would be exceptional, 575 is unbelieveable. Until the driveline breaks, that I'd believe.

Don't tell me, it has a DSG transmission and Haldex AWD

Seriously, this should kick SOA and FHI in the patoot, and get a Legacy STi fast-tracked to production with an STI 3.0 or 3.6 TT flat 6, and REAL STI AWD. A real 6MT with the STI DCCD (at least fully auto VTD, if not driver selectable...) or a electro-hydraulic manual like DSG, SMG, or Ferrari F1, please.

[aldouse]

That is actually pretty cool. I don't particulary like VW's but from the article that car looks pretty nice.

i dont know.... the bottom rear end of that GTR just doesn't look right to me. but overall i agree w/ u

[pdw]

I pulled up the RL, TL, 5 series, Legacy, A4, A6, and Passat in a side by side comparison before writing my post...

considering wheelbase, interior, and exterior dimensions...my ascertation was correct.

You can look up the specs all you want. After living with the two cars for at least 6 years, I can tell you the Passat is a lot closer in interior space to the A6 than it is the A4.

[clarinetxkid]

going back to the discussion on the reliability factor of Subaru's success, you'd have to admit that once a company like Subaru has established such strong reliability (at par w/ tops like honda, toyota), it will be extremely wary when it tries to put out another brand new car as to not ruin the reputation.

The cautious thinking may push them to either put down fewer production cars to reduce risk, or just seriously slow down the R&D factor. just what i'm getting when i try to put myself in SOA's shoes

[wukindada]

As much as I would like to have the car....@ this point it is a PIPEDREAM!
Oh... I have an inside line on how to get the winning #'s on powerball it will only cost you 50.00 each. It will not win you the jackpot but it will guarantee you @ least 5#'s every time;)

[riscy]

Almost.... VW will easily want $55K for this car. Subaru could do it for $15K less, and they already have 90% of the pieces to do it.

sarcasm: German auto makers don't charge for thier cars based on what it costs to produce them, but rather based on a caomplicated formula of horsepower and amenities with a final premium based on the prestige of the particular nameplate http://www.legacygt.com/forums/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

[agctr]

I still personally believe that Subaru & FHi could certainly make a powerful H6 single turbo twin scroll like when have in the GT and get out an easy 325 to 350HP. That would put the Liberty/LegacySTi in the same game as the current ///M3 but to go to the next step, they would have to produce above that with a TT setup to keep up with the pace as the competition knows no bounds.
Ada///M.

[doteleven]

Speaking about Passat's ....

I saw an article talking about possible plans to build a VW Passat R GT.

Twin turbo 3.2 L V6, with AWD. 575 HP. Hint hint ... subaru ;)

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/vw-passat-r-gt.htm

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/images/vw-r-gt-passat-4.jpg

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/images/vw-r-gt-passat-3.jpg

You guys should know about the cost it actually cost to build these VWs - before you think "hmmm... why couldn't Subaru do that"?

Since I used to own an VW R32, I'm very familiar with the awesome, but HIGHLY PRICED HPA twin turbo kits:

http://www.hpamotorsports.com/conversion_twinturbo.htm

Yup - the stage II HPA kit is well north of $35K. That's before coilovers, body work, wheels, etc.

And while the Passat has 4Motion / Haldex, the Jetta had to be retrofitted, which I understand is another close to $20K. So that we're looking at what probably amounts to a 90-100K Jetta, folks. Oh and I have no idea what the DSG reprogramming cost... Even if VW were to take HPA into the fold like Mercedes did with AMG, I suspect it would be hard to keep the price on that Jetta down below $60K.

I think someone else's point that Subaru could do a $35K Legacy H6 single turbo with ~350HP is pretty reasonable. I mean, a stock Legacy outruns a stock Audi S4, so no reason to think that a Legacy H6 single turbo couldn't run with an RS4 and totally outrun the E90-based M3.

However, at $35K, Subaru will be selling the car based purely on performance. Look at the STi - for $30K, you get cr*p for an interior. The interesting marketing question is whether people would buy a $45K Legacy H6 single turbo with the same performance as a $35K car, where the only difference was luxury / comfort items like 12 way ventilated / heated seats, premium leather, completely new high-quality interior materials, etc.

Personally, I'd say keep the existing Legacy interior, give it some better seats with 2 tone leather, and spend the money on delivering a car with more engine, brakes, and suspension.

Albert

[bdisco]

I still personally believe that Subaru & FHi could certainly make a powerful H6 single turbo twin scroll like when have in the GT and get out an easy 325 to 350HP.

Put one in the Tribeca & I'd buy it.

by the way if I had the $$$ 1001hp would be nice too.

[Renesis8]

The chances of a 350HP legacy in the near future I think is slim. Dont compare Subaru to other European manufacturers yet, as stated in this thread before, Subaru just used a ton of money to rebuild the image of their brand. What I forsee is that Subaru will invest the money first into using technology to make more power and save a little gas, for example Direct Injection.

Subaru afterall is still a Japanese brand, and look at all the Japanese cars, their HP ratings have yet to break the 300hp mark in general, (well except mayb for Nissan/Infinity with G and M series)... but they r still a little under that. I personally dont think they'll release a 300++ hp car before any other Japanese brands, and when that happens, Subaru will release the Legacy STi to blow them away

Right now is the worst time to release it due to the gas prices and the market is not exactly ready to buy a 40K Subaru, of course there are people willing to spend 40K for the Legacy STi on this board, but I assume the general public would be happy with the 250HP LGT.

Other Japanese manufacturers are developing/researching other technologies to improve their cars, not just by increasing displacement or boost. Horsepower(remember all the horsepower advertisment??) drew buyers to buy the cars for a couple of years, but now that the HP on the cars have reached a relatively high level and sorta break even with the gas comsumption, the market is probably looking at a different category beside HP. For example: technologies/luxury

-Lexus with the SH-AWD, its awesome, and could possibly draw buyers away from the Subaru AWD crowd.
-Toyota with the hybrids, if they implement it in a more sporty car and change the image, mayb that'd draw some buyers
-Nissan, not too sure, but their VQ engine sure rocks.
-Mazda has a Mazdaspeed 6 that is a direct competitor to the LGT, and the MSP6 isnt a bad car either and slightly cheaper than LGT. They are also playing with hydrogen, and they already have a hydrogen RX8 in Japan for lease already, and also have a hydrogen, gasoline, electric rotary engine in the Tokyo motor show.

And overall all of them now have a AWD system in their lineup, slowly drawing buyers from Subaru. I bought the Legacy because of its looks, luxury and AWD was the most important factor,Legacy was the only reasonable/best choice compared to Camry, Accord, Mazda6

But dont get me wrong, I myself would love to see a 350HP Legacy Sti =D

Feel free to comment on this =)

[IwannaSportSedan]

Why can't Subaru be first among the Japanese car makers to go over 300hp on a sport sedan... They do it on a Rally Car!

They designed the newest legacy model to go after A4 1.8/2.0T Quattros. That's pretty european, there.

Gas prices are coming down. I payed less than two dollars a gallon yesterday. The American economy is growing at almost 4 percent, with less than 3% inflation, despite getting rocked by a hurricane or three, to use a rock and roll phrase... Wages have been stagnant for a while, and once they start rising, they will likely start picking up speed.

Horsepower always sells cars. Fuel economy is starting to sell cars, but still, fewer people buy tin cans with wheels ONLY for fuel mileage than buy monster muscle cars and trucks for horsepower. Fuel economy happens to be a watchword at the moment that comes and goes. Performance has staying power. People aren't giving up performance that they expect for economy or luxury. they are asking for both, or all three. Granted, some people don't expect much performance, and are buying a couple of Accents and Priuses, or buicks...

I am all for differentiation in the marketplace, and new technology that serves a real need or desire. Gadgets for gadgets' sake don't impress me. I am glad that more cars are getting better mileage AND more power, and more cars are going AWD.

IF that takes a bite out of Subaru's 1% pie-slice, that means they need to do MORE, not less, to compete. Standing still in terms of performance is the absolute wrong thing to do.

I think Hydrogen has promise but there are two HUGE problems that are going to take time to overcome...
1: Distribution. Hydrogen is highly explosive, and required to be transported a very cold temperatures. It also requires very precise and safe pumping and nozzle equipment. (you have to ground your car to the pump so that static doesn't blow you into next year.) I'd hate to see a hydrogen tanker truck accident. It would look like a decent yeild bomb drop.

2: Electricity. (this applies to electric cars, too) It takes a large ammount of electricity to separate hydrogen from water. The good thing is that hydrogen just goes BACK to water when oxidized. However, you have to put in nearly as much, or even more energy to separate hydrogen from water, hold it, transport it, and pump it safely, that you get back out of it in a Fuel cell or hydrogen combustion engine as mechanical energy.

Basically it is outsourcing your car's energy production to an electrical plant somewhere, that still burns coal, oil, or natural gas, which is only net change for more complexity at this point.

I don't think that alternative fuel is bad, or even improbable, I do however think that it is a longer way off than most people think, and not something we are going to see in everyone's driveway in the next few years.

BTW:
Mazdaspeed 6 is a tad heavier (I thought...) than the LGT. And it has Faux-wheel drive, which is basically rear-wheel-assisted Front-drive. And it is more expensive than the GT Limited, but less than the Spec B. Also harder to modify. A mildly and easily tuned Legacy GT gets more power.

SH-AWD is a Honda/Acura product, and only available on a car costing much more than the Legacy the Acura RL, at this point. Plus it is very complex, and I would hate to think of the cost of repair.

Nissan/Infiniti does ok, and they do have a nice engine. I hear differently about their transmissions and interiors. Plus the Manual transmission is not available with the AWD on the G35x. Same with the IS350. No stick, no AWD. IS250 has them, but is much less powerful.

There is no Rule that says Subaru can't smack their Japanese and European competitors down before they each fire first. I am hoping that Subaru has the forsight to see it, and take the opportunity to be out front. I have long said they need a two-pronged attack, with their outdoorsey image, and also a serious sporting reputation with their STI sub-brand, as well as the WRX and LGT.

[Renesis8]

-Thanks for correcting me on the SH-AWD, yeah its by Honda/Acura.
-In Canada, the MSP6 is cheaper than LGT, MSRP wise


At the Tokyo Motor show, they had the SH-AWD on a more Accord class sedan on a concept car, so they might start selling this AWD system as an option in the near future I think.

Also, my point on Horsepower and Gas Consumption isnt as extreme as muscle car and lets say, the prius for example. Its because the horsepower has reached a high enough level for the general market that is looking for sedans. 300HP is plenty, maybe even a little too much for the general market. And everyone knows that the more hp u make the more gas u use, so my point was, car companies should look at a way to improve gas mileage while keeping the same power output. How many threads we see here that complains about mileage, and its not just on this board, they are everywhere.

I read here that Subaru are developing a hybrid direct injection turbo boxer 4? So good move Subaru.

Legacy STi might become a reality if Subaru can improve their marketing even more and take a chunk outta the Camry/Accord/Mazda6 market. Just look at Mazda and their success with Mazda6. If Subaru can do that and get big $ from the Legacy (which is hihgly possible), the Legacy package is better than their competitors in EVERY SINGle way, STi would be very good to build up the brand as a performance brand

One problem i see is that when sedan buyers see the word "turbo", they hesitate, even Subaru cars a proven to be reliable, Subaru should really just drop a H6 in the LGT...

[IwannaSportSedan]

I can agree with you there about the H6.

I think the Legacy GT is having to serve two masters, which is unfortunate.
SOA is trying to sell the Legacy to Higher-end customers. That is fine... but is trying to cater to two different groups...

The Sport Sedan crowd. Like me. I want performance first, and a few niceties along for the ride, like leather and a sunroof. But performance is king. It is trying to clobber the likes of the Audi A4 in this arena.

The Near-lux group. Performance is nice, but amenities and prestige will really get it done. Features, Styling, Technology bragging rights. That sort of thing. It is trying to undercut Audi here, a little slightly content for a LOT less cash.

The Legacy GT sedan fills the Sport sedan bill, but I wonder if they are trying too hard to make it attractive to everybody who walks on the lot. The WRX STI doesn't do that. It makes no bones about it's performance, and if you don't like the wings, then fine, buy yourself a forester.

The Legacy isn't presented with so much assurance, and is trying to befreind everyone. (without much help from advertizing)
The thing is, it could be a better handler, and have better braking, and a few other performance tweeks, but would perhaps turn off the sunday-out-for-a-drive crowd a bit, who want near luxury to impress their freinds, but not neceessarily a racier image or something that looks like the economy-bin version. Subaru is trying to get the 2.5i away from that impression by making it less distinguishable from the 2.5GT, same wheels, etc. (only the mercedes-like mirror signals are missing, aside from the turbo.)

The thing is, that dressing up the economy version isn't exactly what someone wants when comparing the Legacy with the G35, IS350, TSX, and A4.

The solution exists. But it is not available in the United States.

The Legacy 3.0R Sedan and Wagon, and Spec B sport suspension and aero package is the answer. 6cylinders. A matter of honor to some when 4 cylinders are just a little bit too pedestrian. Leather, HIDs, NAV, Power Seats with Heaters, Signal Mirrors, Auto Climate control, 5-speed Automatic with sport shift, or a 6MT. Those are all enjoyable bits, and options to brag to freinds about, and would make a 3.0R Legacy quite nice in that role.

The 2.5 GT and any future STI Legacy model should be left to those of us who know what more torque and forced induction means, and know why we want that. Give us the creature comforts as options, too, but let the ones who aspire to Luxury have it, and let the 2.5 GT (and it's Spec B, unless spec B just becomes spec-normal.) have a bit more focused purpose, and a bit less of a split role.

Personally, I think the 3.0R Outback Sedan, as much as I think it is fine the way it is, would probably sell better as a 3.0R Legacy Sedan, with the same equipment inside, and lower to the pavement outside. The Outback wagon has a lot of brand equity, and people expect that. The Legacy GT wagon is a real bolt-from-the-blue, and might not sell as well as the sedan nor the Outbacks, but deserves a place by its sheer uniqueness. BMW and Mercedes, and others are seeing the merits of putting their ///M and AMG hardware into their touring estates, as well as their saloons. (a bit of british car lingo, there...) Subaru already puts power in the hands of wagon drivers, and more power to 'em. I think the 5MT/NAV/Spec-B pkg, etc., should all be equally available with a Legacy wagon format. Build a few of them specially to order if they are too unique to put in dealer stock...

Personally, I think they need to trump-up their niche marketing, and sidestep the comparisons to the Accord and Camry. Those cars sell more in a month than Subaru does in a year. That is a hard nut to crack. Go after the zoom-zoom of the Mazda. the Legacy GT is zoomier. Even with an H6 it would likely have more power. Go after the lux of the G35 and IS. The Legacy has more value. Go after the Europeans. Less expensive, more powerful, more traction, and more reliability than ALL of the entry-level european compact sport sedans. (most don't have AWD standard, nor have as much power in their entry level models, and are more expensive out of the gate, both to buy and to own.)

I really wish they would introduce the 3.0R Legacy. With the trifecta of the 2.5i variations (21-25k), a firmer GT (27-30k), and a plusher 3.0R (28-31k), and marketed to their strengths, the Legacy could do very well, if given a real shot at it, and a 400hp 3.0TT Legacy STI (~35-38k) could knock it completely out of the ballpark.

[SubieDriver]

I really wish they would introduce the 3.0R Legacy. With the trifecta of the 2.5i variations (21-25k), a firmer GT (27-30k), and a plusher 3.0R (28-31k), and marketed to their strengths, the Legacy could do very well, if given a real shot at it, and a 400hp 3.0TT Legacy STI (~35-38k) could knock it completely out of the ballpark.


This sounds like a perfect product spread. Maybe we should vote out the product planners at SOA and vote in IwannaSportSedan.

He gets my vote!

(I would spring for either the 3.0R or the Legacy STi (if I could afford it), though I feel the 3.0R could use a little more torque. I suppose having the 6-speed tranny would compensate.)

Tim

(edited for spelling)

[agctr]

Well if the R&D here in Australia on the 2.0L and 3.0R units is anything to go by, Subaru may well be testing what the market will bear. Australia/New Zealand have been markets that have grown very well for Subaru Japan and are happy to trial small limited runs in both countries. It has been well known for years that if you want a JDM STi from STi Japan, NZ is the place to buy it as they have been getting these units direct for years. Hence the development on the LibertySTi and other units in NZ.

Now if Subaru feels they can develop enough interest in a H6TT, or an engine that could produce figures of 350+ in stock format, I guarantee you they will build it. Then I would say they will seriously look at full scale production. H6TT maybe out of the question, but an engine that produces similar sort of figures may not be. The HP war is certainly not over by any strech, look at the German boys, and I think what we are now seeing is the competition starting to build in Japan. For years the "Gentleman's Agreement" of 206kW has been in force, now that these shackles are off, just wait.

I promise you, the sleepy Giant HONDA is just waiting in the wings to totally SHOCK AND ORE Nissan and their GT-R concept. The NSX will rein again.
Ada///M.

[keith05legacyGT]

Some of you folks should join the BMW or other car clubs and you will see the same arguments, demands, expectations. Car nuts like us are a dying breed. Face it. Last I saw over 80% of the new vehicles sold in the US were 4-wheel living rooms with automatics. Most people that buy BMW/Audi/MB don't care one bit about performance. They care about a label. How many people really drive a car the way it was engineered? Car manufacturers all know this, so they constantly throw new gee-whiz BS on vehicles that enthusiasts have no use for. Why? Because that is what the masses want. Keep in mind that cars like the M3 are not made to sell M3s. They are made for brand recognition. Ask any dealership, they will tell you the same. Heck one brand we haven't talked about that is trying the hardest to go back to performance based is Cadillac. They have a bad stygma they are trying to shake.

It is a harsh reality, but the only time we will get a real performance car from ANY manufacturer is when they need to come up with a way to get brand recognition or draw more people into their showrooms. Some people say we got the STi because of the EVO. Bull. That was a brilliant marketing ploy, albeit not totally true. It was an easy way to get their name out there, got alot of anticipation and press. "Rivalry" is one of the oldest sales tricks in the books.

I agree, the 06 Spec B is no where near being the car Subaru needs to make the step to the next level. I can say this because that is what I drive. If they indeed want to compete with the Audi/BMW they need to offer a car like an STI LGT to get on the map with THEIR customer base and to draw in people from other makes. Subaru's are known in two crowds really, the ricer crowd (WRX, STI) and the pseudo-outdoorsey-yuppi-hippiewanabee's. Read the sales info for the Spec B. It is clearly meant to test the waters of stealing customers from Audi.

I would love to see an TTH6 in a Legacy sized car. Porsche can do it, why can't Subaru? In fact when I got my car the license plate I was given ended in "H30". What kind of irony is that?
This type of discussion can go on and on. It is definitely made for the bar :munch:

Cheers and Happy Turkey Day !!!

[rfd425]

Keep in mind that cars like the M3 are not made to sell M3s. They are made for brand recognition. Ask any dealership, they will tell you the same.
Agreed. That's the exact argument I and a few others have been making for the production of a true Legacy STi. It doesn't matter if that model is profitable in and of itself; what matters is that it is hailed as an "S4 killer" or whatever by the automotive press, which in turn will help sales of the "little brother" cars like the Legacy GT and Legacy 2.5i.

[fan42025]

I agree with pretty much all what's said about how Subaru can make a better impression to match/pass cars like M3/S4/etc. However, there's one thing that's missed. That's the actual bling bling factor of the exterior and interior of the car. Although I love my GT, the looks still don't impress me as much as say a BMW or Merc (hate the new truck-like grill of say the Audi RS4 and A6). Subaru needs to spruce up the exterior (and to some extent the interior as well) to attract more buyers. Shouldn't need a lot of work but would require some smart people to do it. If they hit the sweet spot, it would increase their sales significantly. For example, the rear-end lights need a significant change as they look so bland.

As was said before they should also offer more options for the gizmo happy buyers too as that's also the name of the game. Here in OZ, we already have our common home made car coming out with Bluetooth. It's little things like these that can and do attract many buyers.

[SUBE555]

fan, I don't think the exterior needs a lot of treatment or the interior for that matter. The tuned by STI model as seen below does it pretty well IMO, but there are a few parts that just need to flow together better...
http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/LEGACY/imgs/top.jpg

Iwannasportsedan, I've been proclaiming that should be the line-up as well for some time, that a 3.0R in a Legacy trim would probably sell better than in the OB, but that fell on deaf ears long ago. IMO it's the perfect way to do it and if they could throw direct injection into all the models, and a few more tweaks here and there, better fuel mileage as well. :) I think the line-up works well and slight customizing per interior options as we had in the GT and GT Limited was nice and would be great to see return.

Legacy 2.5i (good all-around base car to serve the masses)

Legacy 2.5GT (perhaps make Spec B performance std on regular USDM GT with 18x7.5 stock, better suspension, plus catless up-pipe in favor of O2 injection)

Legacy 3.0R (little more luxo, good less expensive alternative to 330xi and A4 3.0 Quattro to serve the masses)

Legacy STI (no holds barred performance with leather and moonroof std but things like NAV should be option only)

My guess is it would allow for less compromises as most that want the luxo would go for the smoother 3.0R with 5EAT. That would allow the 2.5GT to have a slightly better edge than it has now. More people and demographics I believe would win with that strategy.

[agctr]

I think Seth you have a good combo going there, with IWSS and his support for a vehicle like a H6TT, I believe that Subaru on a global scale should really start listening to the ppl that purchase their cars and not the salesppl behind the desks. As I have pointed out before, since owning a Subaru, Honda, Toyota, BMW, AUDI etc etc etc, not once have I or any of my family members ever seen a survey form or been asked for our opinion. So my question to this is, who are the so-called-experts that companies like Subaru rely on to make these decisions, because its certainly NOT ppl like us.

Yes we can rant and rave in forums like this, but it just never gets noticed.......

WHY ? WHY ? WHY ?
Ada///M.

[Renesis8]

I received a survey after my purchase of a 05 legacy, it was actually quite long too....

[sebberry]

I got 2 surveys with my XT.. I gave it a low -ish rating for "How do you like the amount of power your vehicle has" question :)

[agctr]

Ok so u both got surveys but what was it related to?
Your current purchase?
Or what u think the future direction of Subaru will be ?
TIA
Ada///M.

[fan42025]

Ok so u both got surveys but what was it related to?
Your current purchase?
Or what u think the future direction of Subaru will be ?
TIA
Ada///M.

Exactly. The survey I got didn't really ask the right questions. As I and a few others have said, Subaru has to offer more options to stay in competition. Performance and handling although very commendable are not the only things that attract buyers. In fact, it's typically low on the list of most people (not me though!).

[harrydog]

I agree with those who say the Tribeca will be the first to get an H6 turbo engine. In my opinion Subaru absolutely must offer a version of the Tribeca with more power, as the current version is definitely underpowered. In every comparison test that I've seen, the Tribeca stacks up very well against the competition except for the lack of power. A low pressure turbo version of the H6 would be the easiest way for Subaru to accomplish this.
I think we'll definitely see this happen, but an H6 turbo in any other model is much less likely I think.

[SubieDriver]

... but an H6 turbo in any other model is much less likely I think.

I disagree. Subaru, being a small manufacturer, is MORE likely to spread development costs across more than one model line to earn back the money they spent on R&D. I say we WILL get a turbo H6 Legacy - maybe not twin-turbo, but at least single-turbo.

I think Jeff Perrin is working more closely with Subaru than he'll let on, when building his turbo H6 2006 Impreza STi (the one he showed at SEMA), to do some real-world performance testing, to see how much HP & torque the current driveline will handle reliably. But then, that's just my 2 cents.

Who knows, maybe the turbo H6 will even make it into the Forester and Impreza too, after all, Perrin didn't have much problem shoe-horning the H6 into the Impreza engine bay. He reports that Subaru says it's only 60 pounds heavier than the H6, and I think it was only an inch or two longer - easy fit!

Tim

[keith05legacyGT]

ada///m, one of the surveys is this real esoteric thing where they ask you to liken cars to emotions. Also alot to do with how certain brands make you feel (Not necessarily cars either). When I get mine for my latest car I will send you some examples. My friend who works for a marketing firm says alot of agencies love them, but most people who complete them have no idea what is being asked.

[agctr]

Yeah I have to agree with yr very last sentence there Keith. (Welcome aboard btw). I think a lot of these questionaires go out to satisfy marketing companies and not to really feed the engineers and designers with information that is going to help them go in one direction or another. I have to admit, not all car owners have the same level of passion as each other and may look upon a survey as "Avon Calling" or someone walking up to u in a shopping centre on Chrismas Eve and asking you a whole bunch of unrelated questions, but for some like us, they are important.

I mean u wouldnt have purchased the car if u were not happy with the total package but if they asked other questions like,

1. Should we have included an option list with X, Y & Z
2. Having only 1 engine size to choose from, was this a positive or negative.

Questions like these MIGHT help Subaru globally to make decisions based on what the consumer wants and will pay for other than asking BS questions like, were our sales staff helpful, which doesnt help me, u or the co.
Ada///M. = Adam.

[PURIST]

I asked a SOA rep last month about it and he smirked like he knew somthing was going down.

[agctr]

Who's knows , just who knows. He is just being cooey.
Ada///M.

[harrydog]

I disagree. Subaru, being a small manufacturer, is MORE likely to spread development costs across more than one model line to earn back the money they spent on R&D. I say we WILL get a turbo H6 Legacy - maybe not twin-turbo, but at least single-turbo.

I think Jeff Perrin is working more closely with Subaru than he'll let on, when building his turbo H6 2006 Impreza STi (the one he showed at SEMA), to do some real-world performance testing, to see how much HP & torque the current driveline will handle reliably. But then, that's just my 2 cents.

Who knows, maybe the turbo H6 will even make it into the Forester and Impreza too, after all, Perrin didn't have much problem shoe-horning the H6 into the Impreza engine bay. He reports that Subaru says it's only 60 pounds heavier than the H6, and I think it was only an inch or two longer - easy fit!

Tim
I don't doubt that other models will get an H6 turbo eventually, but I think it is a few years away. It would mainly be an attempt to move certain models, most likely the Legacy, further upscale to compete in the near luxury segment. The Tribeca, on the other hand, desperately needs more power, so I think that will be where this engine appears first.
I'd be somewhat surprised to see it in the Forester though.
If I'm proven wrong, that's fine by me, since I'd like to see this engine offered in all models (in different states of tune of course).

[wukindada]

Lets not forget...displacement for the H6 needs to be bumped up also. The HP is "OK" for a 3.0 the TQE is dismal:( Bump the displacement up to 3.5 keep the NA motor @ 250-260HP @ watch that TQE jump up into the 270-280 range. I mean we are talking .5 of a displacement difference between a 4 and the 6:eek:

[PURIST]

Who's knows , just who knows. He is just being cooey.
Ada///M.

Ya, the guy I spoke to is very informed with Subaru inside info. So, no I don't think he was being cooey.

[SLegacy99]

Lets not forget...displacement for the H6 needs to be bumped up also. The HP is "OK" for a 3.0 the TQE is dismal:( Bump the displacement up to 3.5 keep the NA motor @ 250-260HP @ watch that TQE jump up into the 270-280 range. I mean we are talking .5 of a displacement difference between a 4 and the 6:eek:

Yeah but youre also talkin gas mileage difference too, which Id think its safe to say that most Subaru drivers are content with the 19 that they get with the 2.5T and 3.0 six.

Oppinion question. I have no doubt that Subaru is gonna release a hybrid in a few years now that they have Toyota on their side but what kinda engine you think their gonna put in it? You think that they will take the Lexus approach and have lots of power and get like 30 mpg or you think they will go for more MPG?

[GraysonSubaru]

In speaking to our rep yesterday about this thread topic, the plant currently has a turbo H6 running around on plant grounds. Kind of their own test and tune sort of thing for now from what he gathered. A turbo 6 will happen he said, just a matter of how quickly and what vehicle(s) they will let it be available in here in the US.

[GraysonSubaru]

<<< also is a Seth -- so the talking of Seth kind of threw me off at first.

[PURIST]

It'll all depends on what Mitsu comes out with and the reception of the new GTR proto. Right now they are still superior in thier genre.

[twisted]

powerplant is good and all but if they dont design the exteriors decently then more people will opt for the gtr or evos..that B5 is a curse and a waste of space on this planet...
o and does anyone know if the skyline GTR proto gets AWD ???
Didnt the original skyline have like "plenty of toys" that "all worked"
AWD, AWS, adjustable suspension during cornering etc etc.???

[PURIST]

If it is like the r34 it will have the attessa awd system.

[agctr]

Do u really really really think that Subaru will bring out the H6T or H6TT to combat the GT-R?, personally I dont think so. If the H6TT is brought out it will be to take it to the EUROS such as BMW, AUDI & MB to name a few. I dont think ATM they are looking to tackle markets that are not really in their Mission Statement.
Ada///M.

[PURIST]

Subaru came out with the STI (in the US) to combat Mitsu. The new gt-r will have a vq motor in it probably a big 6 or small 8 and rest assured that Subabru will have a say in that market. Kirk told me it is coming, so I believe him. Mission statement no, Subaru EGO yes. Subaru likes to wait till others bring out thier cars and then top them. In the case of the Tribeca, they waited a very long time to bring out a full size SUV, but now they are reeping the benefits.

[agctr]

I will agree to disagree, yes u have some valid points but I do not believe STi or Subaru will want to compete against the 2 Door Market, but that is IMHO. I believe Subaru's Target is MB, BMW & AUDI for starters, anything else they gain from say a 2 door market will be a pure bonus.

I see yr last point and do agree, its a bit like how Subaru market their WRX EVO's, so I see yr point.
Ada///M.

[PURIST]

I agree that they are gunning for the luxury market; thus the higher prices overall on all Suabru cars, but don't tell me you think that Subaru isn't looking at what Mitsu and Nissan are doing? I don't know how it is in Australia; I can only speak for the U.S. buyer and people here consistantly compare the G35 coupe versus the Legacy and the Sti against the G35 coupe. I guarantee that the new gtr will be compared to the STI, 2 door or not, just because there is nothing close in performance. An H6T is somthing very different from what they are doing now and will cost alot of money to do. They will not move until the big guns come out.

[agctr]

I see yr point, we dont get the G35 coupe and cant believe that even the ///M gets compared with this car. The G35 might be good but it aint no GT-R or M3 for that matter. Will be interesting now to see if Subaru are considering a TT or T with Twin Scroll like our 2.0L setup here in Oz.
Ada///M.

[Tony117s]

if anything subaru will put an h6tt in a new SVX not a legacy or wrx

[SLegacy99]

I agree, but I think that the Legacy is still in store for something more than the current turbo. Perhaps an H6 GT or something to discourage the idea of the Legacy being a 4 banger.

[agctr]

I suppose we are just passanger in this decision process which is disappointing to say the least.
Ada///M.

[PURIST]

if anything subaru will put an h6tt in a new SVX not a legacy or wrx

Why so?

[agctr]

I agree, why would Subaru put a H6TT is a dead project like the SVX.
I think the concept is gone, never to return.
Ada///M.

[Tony117s]

I agree, why would Subaru put a H6TT is a dead project like the SVX.
I think the concept is gone, never to return.
Ada///M.
why there would be no better platform for a h6tt than a 2 door performance coupe with unique styling and excellent handling

[PURIST]

why there would be no better platform for a h6tt than a 2 door performance coupe with unique styling and excellent handling

Because no one bought it. It didn't matter how many useful items were added to the Pontiac Aztek; no one bought it. It didn't matter if they added a tent option to a car made for campers and hikers; bottom line no one bought it. The SVX was a great car and personally I liked it, but the rest of America didn't. There are no future Subaru plans to revive the SVX.

[agctr]

Have to admit, Purist, u pretty much summed it up.
Nice.
Ada///M.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Stupid.

The SVX wasn't the problem, as a whole. Details were the problem.

Flat front end. Not bad. Not charismatic, though. Certainly shows it's age.

Old school dash with a covered radio console. (I hate doors that always are open because what is behind them is actually useful)

No Manual transmission. Big mistake. AWD not standard until later. It wasn't seen as a performance car, but a cruiser. Cruisers sell to a different clientele, with a lot less tendency to buy a contraversial car.

Braking and drivetrain reliability issues. Solvable, but hard on an otherwise contraversially styled car. Does not build the best reputation.

Car was a bit big, again goes to the cruiser role. The Porsche 928 was being put out to pasture, as well as the 3000GT and Stealth at the same time as the SVX was trying to go into the market, SUVs were going great guns, and the Outback was picking up the alternative-to-an-SUV role. Coupes were on the outs in all markets and brands.

So. Fix the problems, take into account the differing market conditions, and a subaru SPORT touring coupe could do well. Not exactly the SVX's original form or role, but a new and improved resurrection.

Use the Legacy Sedan platform. Parts sharing can help here, and it is a good platform, with performance drivetrain already in place, and the H6TT would be a blockbuster for a performance coupe. Porsche proves that at $120k. 2.5Turbo and 3.0R H6 to round out the engine options, 250hp in either base configuration. Good place to start, going up to 400 with the H