Subaru contact says performance Legacy still coming

[waflowers]

An inside source which should be considered reliable passed information to me that SOA is still planning a performance version of the Legacy :!: and are still considering something around 280Hp, although it could be more! :o

Timeframe mentioned was "around September delivery".

The subtext of the message I received was to hold off on taking the Legacy GT and wait for this bad boy instead. They wanted me to know that it was still coming despite no official announcement (yet) and that my patience would be rewarded.

I get the impression that this is being leaked to make sure that the "pent up demand" remains for this performance version (Legacy STi?) instead of going for the 250/250 GT (2.5T) version already announced.

I'm trying to see an ulterior motive in telling me to wait, but I can't see it. In fact it would be to SOA's and the dealer's advantage to get my $$$ ASAP, not many months later.

Since I don't need to buy any car this year and I don't need to buy a Legacy GT as soon as the first one is shipped but I do desire a performance Legacy, I think I will wait until the fall (maybe an extra 3-4 months if this info is right) and see what my patience nets me.

It also makes it clear that I will be modding my current GT further. Where's the number for Cobb?

Let the speculation begin! :twisted:

[PPower]

This is great news to me since I will be having to wait a solid year before buying a new car. This would be absolutely awesome, and this performance version would be a very good starting place for a 6MT. The 4.444 final is too short with a 5, but it could work with a 6. Even if it has the same engine as the STi, it might be a tad slower with wider spaced gears and better fuel economy as well. It would probably be quicker to 60 without a 3rd gear change. An advantage of using the STi's engine is that it would bring down their costs by producing it in higher volume.

The biggest thing against the car to some people will be that it will probably come standard with leather and all the trimmings driving the price up. The base GT will still be the bargain car of the year IMO. :lol: here I'm saying this without even knowing for fact what the price will be. Maybe I'm too confident.

[Dr. Zevil]

I don't know.. why would they release it in September? That doesn't make sense at all... are they thinking spec-B?

[waflowers]

here I'm saying this without even knowing for fact what the price will be.
The number $32K was "dropped" more than once during the conversation where I received this startling, exciting news. (Or should I just call it a rumor for now?)

[Tide]

I'd be all for it. I still want to wait until Detroit '05 before I buy one. If they are not going to do one the same model year then they need to wait a bit to not upset the fanbase who already spent good cash on one.

[Gumby]

An inside source which should be considered reliable passed information to me that SOA is still planning a performance version of the Legacy :!: and are still considering something around 280Hp, although it could be more! :o

My guess would be the USDM STi Engine and drivetrain. 280hp would not be enough, by the time it comes out all the other manufactureres will have or at least be planning hp increases for their performance models.

[Tide]

Dare I ask it.

What oh what will the bumper look like! :D

[waflowers]

It isn't as simple as raw Hp numbers, but the torque curve and how it relates to the vehicle weight.

Of course for marketing to the unwashed masses (and even most performance minded car buffs) the Hp number in isolation is all that matters. :(

[PPower]

LOL, this is going to be hard to remember what I post in one thread and not the other.

I think that an STi drivetrain (without DCCD & maybe f. Suretrac lsd) is very reasonable. The extra production of STi engines would help reduce costs through economy of scale. The STi 6MT would be perfect with wider gear ratios. Spec B gearing plus an overdrive like I've hoped for would be perfect. It may stay just a bit slower than the Impreza STi that way at least on the 1/4 mile. I'd better not get my hopes up.

[PPower]

Dare I ask it.

What oh what will the bumper look like! :D

I dared not ask it. Thanks for bringing it up though. :lol:

[waflowers]

Dare I ask it.

What oh what will the bumper look like! :D
"I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you." j/k

Seriously, the subject never came up. I'm not one of those that found it to be a big issue. YMMV.

[Gumby]

It isn't as simple as raw Hp numbers, but the torque curve and how it relates to the vehicle weight.

Of course for marketing to the unwashed masses (and even most performance minded car buffs) the Hp number in isolation is all that matters. :(

I totally agree but I don't think 280/280? will be a big enough hike over the GT's 250/250 that's why I suggested USDM STi. That's what I'd want.

[EJ20H-TT]

Hard to see it comming out so soon.

Detroit 2005 sounds more likely IMO

[waflowers]

Hard to see it comming out so soon.

Detroit 2005 sounds more likely IMO
I questioned the timing also, but he was very insistent. (Need a "shrug" smiley.)

[Tide]

So is your deposit still in place? They'd have to announce it before they shipped the first cars.

[Dr. Zevil]

i just can't see it happening. it would undermine any sort of marketing strategy. i hope it does happen, but i think this one isn't likely.

[team23jordan]

I don't know.. why would they release it in September? That doesn't make sense at all... are they thinking spec-B?
i say release it ASAP
i was gonna get GT but now this unknown legacy (USDM spec-b) sounds a lot better than just gt legacy

[Tin_pusher]

waflowers, you don't have to be specific, but what kind of business are you in?

[gtguy]

I just can't see it happening. If that's the case, think about what happens to the rest of the Legacy lineup.

Let's use Audi as an example. People bought the S4 just because it was the most expensive Audi, rather than because of its performance pedigree. If the "high-perf" Legacy comes in, at $30K+, with "only" 280hp (a 30hp bump isn't enough to justify the price hike), then you wind up with a) a confused marketing scheme, with people either deciding to buy one or the other, b) people being paralyzed and deciding not to buy anything or c) people not buying either, because the 250hp isn't enough, and Subaru doesn't have the profile to sell a $30K+ car in the face of some (to the average joe) very impressive competition.

Already, people who were on board with a GT are deciding to "wait for the hot model." But what if the hot model isn't all that hot, but is hotter than the GT? Suddenly, Subaru has a problem with not one, but TWO cars that aren't sufficiently hot.

The only way you can see this happening is if they've figured out some way to get quite a bit of horsepower from the H6, or if the GT will be bargain-priced, moving the fiscal spread of the "high-performance" version to something like $5K or so, which makes it much more viable, marketing-wise.

Or is this car where you'll see standard leather, lightened 6-speed, moonroof, nav, HIDs, etc, with the fancier options not being available at all for the GT.

Perhaps something will come out of the Chicago show, but if GTs are showing up in May (what my dealer said today), September means that some word should be coming down the pike very soon, or people who bought GTs but might have bought whatever this other rumored Legacy will be, could be mightily annoyed.

For us wagon folks, we needn't worry, as the USDM never gets high-performance wagons. The GT would instantly become one of the hottest true wagons out there, along with the Volvo V70R and S4. I say true wagon, because the WRX wagon isn't really a wagon, as much as a sedan with a backpack.

I can't tell any more if Subaru is smart, or stupid.

Kevin

[waflowers]

So is your deposit still in place? They'd have to announce it before they shipped the first cars.
Yes, my deposit is still in place. :)

I was told it isn't 100% certain that this would happen, but that it was "almost certain".

Knowing well what I'm looking for in a car it was recommended that I wait, or I'd regret it when (if?) the performance model is available.

Take it for what it's worth.

[waflowers]

waflowers, you don't have to be specific, but what kind of business are you in?
I'm VP of Software and one of 3 partners (2 managing, one largely silent) of Insight Control Systems. We make inspection equipment (cameras taking pictures which computer analyze in real time) for metal and plastic closures (e.g. most every Coke and Pepsi bottle top in the world, Bud, Millers, Coors, Tylenol, Centrum vitamins, insulin vial tops, etc. and lots more), glass bottles, pharmaceutical products and (in development to be shipped next month) car parts (air bag actuator hubs to start). We specialize in high-speed inspection, with some inspections running at 3000ppm or more!

We have systems all over the world (Beijing, Moscow, Germany, Hungary, England, Spain, France, South and Central America, Korea, Phillipines, Thailand, Nepal, Bahrain off the top of my head). All from Safety Harbor, FL -- across the Bay from Tampa. :D

Was that general enough?

[team23jordan]

^ BANK :o

[Tin_pusher]

Sorry, but that was a bit too vague. I thought you'd be in an auto related field, or something else close to the car biz.

[waflowers]

Sorry, but that was a bit too vague. I thought you'd be in an auto related field, or something else close to the car biz.
I'll assume a missing smilie in the above comment. :) Sorry, I'm a bit removed from the car biz, but I talk to lots of people in lots of areas.

[PPower]

Already, people who were on board with a GT are deciding to "wait for the hot model." But what if the hot model isn't all that hot, but is hotter than the GT? Suddenly, Subaru has a problem with not one, but TWO cars that aren't sufficiently hot.

The only way you can see this happening is if they've figured out some way to get quite a bit of horsepower from the H6, or if the GT will be bargain-priced, moving the fiscal spread of the "high-performance" version to something like $5K or so, which makes it much more viable, marketing-wise.

Or is this car where you'll see standard leather, lightened 6-speed, moonroof, nav, HIDs, etc, with the fancier options not being available at all for the GT.


First off, I think anybody mentioning waiting is somebody who doesn't really need to buy a car immediately and anybody aware of it even in August is in the minority.

I could see a model with the Limited "package" standard and the STi engine/transmission. Hopefully it would have wider spaced gears if that were the case. The pricing of $32k is very plausible so long as it doesn't have the DCCD and front LSD. The leather/sunroof would take the place of those pieces cost wise. Sooo, if a Legacy GT is $1000 more than a WRX sedan, then a Legacy could be $1000 more than the STi Impreza.

I don't think it would cause a problem even at 280hp, and you know I'll tell you why I think so. Let's take somebody who DETESTS leather like SUBE555. It would be a better example if he were older and didn't want to consider the boy racer look of the STi but liked the car. So he is planning on getting the base GT at 26k because the enthusiast wants it STRIPPED. But now, he can suck it up to pay for leather/moonroof/power seats :shock: to gain the Brembo brakes?, BBS? 18" wheels w/ summer tires, suspension, and maybe 30-50hp more (and maybe the heavy duty 6MT that the 30hp more than makes up for). Any true enthusiast that has the financial means to do so would pay the extra money to step it up. The added pieces would be fully worth the additional $3500-$6000 increase over potential prices of the GT($26k?) and GT LTD($28-$28.5k?). BMW 330's performance package is about $3500 for similar things, and those are BMW prices.

[SUBE555]

Guess I'd just have to suck it up and redo the interior in black fabric as found on these seats and have these installed:

http://www.japanparts.com/Pic/pic003/027-015.jpg

I just don't see the need to spoil a car with dumping leather into it. Good example in my book, Pontiac with the $33k+ GTO. Besides, the JDM doesn't require leather in the SpecB.

I'd be willing to pay the same, but for the good fabrics and seats as shown. Guess I am just about the most addament person against power leather seats. The only thing I like in the whole bin is the heated feature which is nice for us northerners. Also a good place to go relax after quarreling with signficant others, go out to garage and settle into those nice heated seats. :lol:

[PPower]

:roll: :roll:

[SUBE555]

I just hate slipping and sliding during performance driving in a fun vehicle. Its purpose defeating. Perhaps they can prove me wrong, but thats all my experiences so far. I sure don't mind the Escane in the STi, its nice and soft and comfy yet firm as how the seats should be. I'm not saying the GT seats need to be the same, but following the same path- performance, slipping in a seat, even the least bit kills the purpose to me.

I just had to reply to that one for you. ;)

[EJ20H-TT]

Hopefully the Sti will have seats

[team23jordan]

^ hopefully GT version have seats too :lol:
maybe i should stop cause its not funny at all
silly me

[waflowers]

SUBE555, I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I'd love the performance version (Legacy STi? That would validate this site name!) to come with seats like you keep posting. And Brembos and Bilsteins maybe. Heck, let's just call it a USDM Spec-B! :o :D

[Dr. Zevil]

That's the thing, I just can't imagine Subaru releasing a "spec-b" variant to the apple-pie and baseball american consumer. In most cases they won't understand the differences and why the pricing is different. To americans it's "if it costs more then it's better". Personally I would be suprised to see an STi legacy make it here, but for some reason that's the only performance model that would fit in with the american automotive idiosyncracies.


NIB HIGH FOOTBALL RULES! :lol:

[Tide]

Well I'll still be crossing my fingers and waiting for more news from waflowers. 8)

[Skylab™]

Consumer interest is why it took untill 2003 for the STi to arrive on the American Market. If it happens, it will take a few model years to get a special edition car.

We are fortunate that we even got the STi...thanks Mitsubishi! Competition is good. :D

[waflowers]

I understand exactly the point of view of the skeptics, and I must say I'm a bit skeptical myself. OTOH I've been trying to look at this from all sides and I can see no advantage to Subaru to "leak" disinformation about something they have no plans to do.

They are getting me to wait when they could have my $$$ instead. During that wait time I might fall in love with a vehicle from some other manufacturer and then they lose me as a Subaru customer. (Note that this is extremely unlikely.) If it doesn't happen I'll be annoyed (also not a good thing to annoy your customers) that I waited for nothing instead of spending all summer driving a shiney new Legacy GT!

So instead of focussing on the contents of the message, as enticing as it might be, let's look instead at the message itself. Can anyone think of anything to be gained by "leaking" this sort of disinformation? I can't.

[gtguy]

First off, I think anybody mentioning waiting is somebody who doesn't really need to buy a car immediately and anybody aware of it even in August is in the minority.

I could see a model with the Limited "package" standard and the STi engine/transmission. Hopefully it would have wider spaced gears if that were the case. The pricing of $32k is very plausible so long as it doesn't have the DCCD and front LSD. The leather/sunroof would take the place of those pieces cost wise. Sooo, if a Legacy GT is $1000 more than a WRX sedan, then a Legacy could be $1000 more than the STi Impreza.

I don't think it would cause a problem even at 280hp, and you know I'll tell you why I think so. Let's take somebody who DETESTS leather like SUBE555. It would be a better example if he were older and didn't want to consider the boy racer look of the STi but liked the car. So he is planning on getting the base GT at 26k because the enthusiast wants it STRIPPED. But now, he can suck it up to pay for leather/moonroof/power seats :shock: to gain the Brembo brakes?, BBS? 18" wheels w/ summer tires, suspension, and maybe 30-50hp more (and maybe the heavy duty 6MT that the 30hp more than makes up for). Any true enthusiast that has the financial means to do so would pay the extra money to step it up. The added pieces would be fully worth the additional $3500-$6000 increase over potential prices of the GT($26k?) and GT LTD($28-$28.5k?). BMW 330's performance package is about $3500 for similar things, and those are BMW prices.

I think that hardly anyone "needs" to buy a car. That's the beauty of the USDM. We chase the next best thing, until the next best thing comes along. :D

Don't forget that you won't see the STi 6-speed in the Legacy because it's too heavy. The other question is performance, vs "performance." My performance car is light and nimble, and doesn't have leather (slide around during hard cornering) and a moonroof (weight).

Subaru might well do it with this "performance version," but it will definitely cannibalize from Legacy sales, if people are in fact considering a Legacy. Most affected will be the GT Limited, with its near $30K price point. When you're talking a $30K car, $30K vs $32K isn't worth worrying about, really. Why move "down" to a GT Limited?

Now, there is talk of a lightened 6-speed box coming, but it is at present, just as much of a rumor as this "performance" model. I could see an upmarket Legacy getting this gearbox, leaving the 5-speed for the more pedestrian GT. As has always been Subaru's style, I don't see the Limited having a manual option. The GT Limited has, as far as I can recall, been automatic with the full plate of options already on the car.

Ultimately, I dunno, and who the heck does, except for some folks at Subaru? I'm sure some enlightenment will come at the Chicago Auto Show, as well as in the intervening months between the show and the release of the GT.

Kevin

[PPower]

Adding a performance version in the same year would really improve the Legacy's odds at earning a Car of the Year from at least somebody. The Legacy itself will be a year and a half old by the time the US magazines do their 2005 COY awards, so that is a lot of time for the competition to rise up and counterstrike. A performance version would really help round out the whole Legacy line.

Yes, a sport model is normally introduced a year or two later to attract attention back to the car. That is normal, but I think that this time is different because the importance of the launch this year is more important to Subaru. Notice how little attention the Legacy drew at the NAIAS. Next to 0. This year of introduction is REALLY important, and maybe gathering a LOT of attention the introductory year would be more beneficial than the normal procedure. The WRX was important, but not nearly as important as the Legacy line.

[gtguy]

So instead of focussing on the contents of the message, as enticing as it might be, let's look instead at the message itself. Can anyone think of anything to be gained by "leaking" this sort of disinformation? I can't.

Buzz, which is cheap advertising. It keeps the name of the car and car company in play without anyone having to spend a dime on magazine or television space. :D

Kevin

[PPower]

Yes, it probably would cannibalize sales of the Legacy some, but that's really the wrong word. What it would do is cause people to upgrade and spend more money. That's a good thing.

Like somebody already said, this could be for release in September 2005.

[Gumby]

I say true wagon, because the WRX wagon isn't really a wagon, as much as a sedan with a backpack.

Very true but packed properly it's amazing how much crap you can fit in there, I go 2 night camping with a family of 4 no worries. Space for an extra cooler of beer with WRX performance is what I'm after :D

BTW, it's called a WRX "Hatch" in other markets.

[PPower]

So instead of focussing on the contents of the message, as enticing as it might be, let's look instead at the message itself. Can anyone think of anything to be gained by "leaking" this sort of disinformation? I can't.

Buzz, which is cheap advertising. It keeps the name of the car and car company in play without anyone having to spend a dime on magazine or television space. :D

Kevin

It is a bit of buzz, but not the right kind. This kind of buzz would be likely to put off people from buying a GT only to end in disappointment when the car doesn't materialize. Then you've lost the buyers because they've built themselves up to really want the better car and then don't want to "settle" for the regular GT they already passed on. We could be the ones really making a mountain out of a molehill.

[gtguy]

We could be the ones really making a mountain out of a molehill.

Naaah. We NEVER do that! :lol: :lol:

Kevin

[waflowers]

[quote="PPowerIt is a bit of buzz, but not the right kind. This kind of buzz would be likely to put off people from buying a GT only to end in disappointment when the car doesn't materialize. Then you've lost the buyers because they've built themselves up to really want the better car and then don't want to "settle" for the regular GT they already passed on.[/quote]
Preston, I was going to answer gtguy with a similar answer but you beat me to it and probably stated it better than I could.

Buzz being excitement for a product or brand is good. Buzz for a product which never appears turns into a backlash that loses direct sales and indirectly influences even more potential customers; that's very, very bad!

So it still doesn't make any sense to me why info like this would be leaked unless it is a virtual certainty, despite the fact that "conventional marketing" practice wouldn't have a vehicle like this appear for 1 year or two, if ever, against the announced GT.

I'm wondering if the speculation re. the resounding silence from the NAIAS unveiling might have something to do with it.

[SUBE555]

I've been keeping tabs on this thread but really haven't had too much of a chance to really exercise my thoughts on this topic until now.

First, I just recieved a followup on the info, another source unaffiliated with the first gives it a high likelihood and mentioned the same timeframe. Looks like the ods are on the way up. :)

The GT could indeed work the medium level aspect for them as the WRX does for the Impreza line.

The prelim estimates I see with 5MT on the GTs sits at about $24,995 to 25,995 base for the sedan, add about $1k for the Wagon, add about $1,500 to $2,000 for the Limited package. So...

GT Sedan (5MT) - 24,995 to 25,995
GT Wagon (5MT) - 25,995 to 26,995
GT Limited Sedan (5MT) - 26,995 to 27,995
GT Limited Wagon (5MT) - 27,995 to 28,995

I have reasoning behind my thoughts and if desired we can start a pricing thread behind the theory of my pricing strategy.

Moving on, placing it on a line of being the corporate exec/manager car on a budget, it would probably have leather standard (if the rest of the car is up to tune, I could live with the leather) along with a number of the Limited features. The $32k slot is probably a pretty fair mark, give or take a grand if it sits more on the side of performance than all-out luxury. I would however like to see the HIDs present, and possibly the Mac depending on its cost.

Some of the things that it may get on the tech side of things:
-The rumored and anticipated lightweight DCCD-less 6MT (the short 4.444 FDR with Spec B ratios in first 5 with a tall 6th just for fast cruising would be ideal)
-3 LSDs are a possibility and for a car of this stature, something that it should include
-A bit more sporty engine tune which could span anything from just more than 250hp, to a more likely 275-300hp range with a tune likely closer to the STi though with a bit more linnear turbo spool, the 7000rpm redline will probably be present in this model
-Brembo brakes (though the current 4-wheel vented brakes should do rather well, particularly if coupled to stainless brake lines and more aggressive pads)
-A bit more sporty suspension, which likely would include springs, possibly sway bars, and who knows if upgraded struts or rear links would also be present
-Wheels would likely be revised to a different variety, 18" Spec B or BBS are both possibilities, though something entirely different is possible, I would rather see the Spec B's if that size is chosen (the OE wheels are generally half the cost of the BBS for similar driving/strength characteristics and easier cleaning)
-The body could recieve some additions in the area of bumper covers and lower side sill spoilers, but I wouldn't expect too much here. Don't expect shorter bumpers unless the production models compress a bit.

Those are some things I would expect to see for $32-33k.

[Tide]

Seriously Waflowers, look into this: :lol:

[waflowers]

First, I just recieved a followup on the info, another source unaffiliated with the first gives it a high likelihood and mentioned the same timeframe. Looks like the ods are on the way up. :)
This is excellent news. I'm fairly thick-skinned but on another forum there are people publicly wondering if I'm "jerking their chains".

[PPower]

Just don't jerk your chain or anybody elses in public. ;)

[skp]

hey waflowers, i've been reading both forums and i was a believer from the beginning! your news made my day.

just get us more info!! :)

[waflowers]

I'm going to try and take my guy (who was just a conduit, he got it from a factory rep) out to lunch tomorrow. If that doesn't work, maybe Saturday or early next week.

I'll report everything I remember. :)

[PPower]

I'll report everything I remember. :)

Just have a coke then. I don't want you passing out and forgetting what he spills to you. No matter how drunk you have to get him, just tell him there's rum in that coke you're having. ;)

[SUBE555]

I'll see if my major contact has any insight on this matter. The 2004 versus 2005 deal would be a bit of an offset, but the JDM has done similar things, so it wouldn't be all too impossible. A present of under your christmas tree, or whatever. ;)

[Dr. Zevil]

I would definitely pop for spec-b. I just can't get my hopes up because I don't believe you :P

...I really want to... I really really do.

[skp]

no new info yet?

[SUBE555]

I haven't talked to anyone lately, been too busy with school stuff and racing. My presence on here can be deceiving though. :evil:

[waflowers]

I haven't talked to anyone lately
Ditto. I will get with my info conduit today or tomorrow. Promise!

[PPower]

No problem. We've still got 4 months until the Legacy starts rolling out. I don't think another week will kill anybody, though it may feel like it.

[SUBE555]

Its only killing the Ghostrider. ;) (Boy I'm glad I haven't seen him over here yet.)

[questmgd]

It's these topic which is keeping me on the forum. I still am dreaming about an STi Legacy Wagon as a reasonably priced and RELIABLE Audi S4 Avant.

I have decided I can no longer handle quirky (I could use much worse adjectives) German cars. But once you delete German cars from your shopping list, your list becomes way too short. This Subaru has been the only bright spot on my future cars list. Otherwise I think I'll end up with hybrid GS or RL, but I feel too young for those cars yet. :)

[gtguy]

The Legacy GT wagon is a reasonably priced and reliable S4 Avant, only at a $15,000 saving. Look at the performance numbers. The S4 Avant will be slightly quicker in U.S. driving, but don't forget that a Legacy GT Spec B (suspension, wheel mods...no power mods) beat an Audi RS6 Avant in a track test. Granted, the track was twisty, but still...

Kevin

[SUBE555]

There still is a huge price advantage over the minimal performance advantage which really isn't worth the cost. The interior might be a bit upgraded too, but not for the huge numbers they're taking for RS6's. Any Subaru dealership should be able to work on a new GT or even the STi, but only 'Elite' Audi dealerships can work on the RS models in addition to Dodge having the same deal with the Neon SRT.

I'll try giving my rep a call this aft if I don't hear from her prior too.

[questmgd]

I totally agree with the assessment of the Legacy.
No other car could match the hi performance Legacy in price if they decide to build one. Even at that mentioned $45K price. I doubt that the price would get up that high, but still.

On the other hand, if they decide against a STi Legacy, there are cars at a higher price point that are also good values, but in a different class.

I guess I'll be holding on and see how this progresses. I'm sure my wife will be happy that I keep my car for a while.

[gurpman]

I haven't talked to anyone lately
Ditto. I will get with my info conduit today or tomorrow. Promise!

Any word yet?

[SUBE555]

I don't think an STi Legacy will break $35k, but indeed for that price it really would have killer equipment and should own most cars on the road.

No word yet. :(

[skp]

so...no new info, yet? anyone?

[Ridgeracer]

Personally I highly doubt Subaru will be coming out with a Legacy Sti this year. It just doesn't make much sense. If this was the JDM market then I would agree. The USDM as a whole isn't as quick to jump at the next big thing as the JDM. Also we aren't as tolerant to multiple model trim levels for a single car. I mean come on. First a Legacy Sti then a Legacy STI Spec B, Spec RA etc.... All these models would simply confuse the AVERAGE American consumer. Now I won't say there isn't something brewing in the pot but I believe its more along the lines of a TRUE entry level luxury sedan. I will say they are probably bring the Legacy 3.0R over but will offer all the premium options that won't be available in the 2.5 GT or 2.5i. Things like a 6 cyl. engine, nav. system, HIDs, rear wiper( if not on the 2.5GT) etc. I don't think there will be much of a HP bump either( maybe 10-15HP more)....I think this would be a better route for Subaru for overall sales and new market penetration...hint hint...entry level luxury sport. But hey if they do release an STI version I won't complain...

[SUBE555]

It would probably work well to release a performance package for the Legacy 2.5GT next year about this time. Let the model get in the starlight, then add something new to push the mag writers on the improvements. Furthermore, if we don't get a 3.0R model this year, I think we'll be seeing it by this time next year at the shows. It's essential to pushing that premium image.

The big thing at next year's snows should be the 7-PAX XUV for MY06, new Impreza for MY07, new Forester for MY08. Therefore I think a performance pack could handle the car update end decently and the XUV would be taking the show.

The more I think about it, a revised model line just for Wagon/Sedan of the 2.5i, 2.5GT, 3.0R w/ Premium Package as a package, not model, particularly if a coupe is thrown into the mix, which I hope it will be. Sales potential.

Oh well, now that I've sorta gone OT, I'll revert back to my cave. :P

[gurpman]

Funny how waflowers, who started the rumor and promised more info, disappeared on us. That pretty much says it all.

My prediction is that Subaru will wait and see if the GT is a hit, and if it is we'll see an STI in fall 2005 or spring 2006. And the STI will only come in sedan, which rules it out for me. No performance package will be offered for the GT, I say, because the GT already is the legacy performance upgrade. The next logical step up, if it occurs, will be the STI. At least that what makes sense to me...

[SUBE555]

IIRC WAFlowers said he was going to be real busy for the next several weeks with work and was going to missing attempting to be a PW. I have heard rumors from other sources so it isn't entirely out of the question, but I think they'd go for the 1-2 magazine punch, 2 years in a row. ;)

[gurpman]

You make it sound like waflowers' job is more important than this forum :)

What I'd really love is an STI wagon with 350/350. I'd pay a pretty penny for that.

[PPower]

No kidding gurpman. Talked about mixed up priorities. :lol:

[SUBE555]

I have my priorities straight. Subaru's and the faithful, school is an afterthought. :lol:

[waflowers]

Funny how waflowers, who started the rumor and promised more info, disappeared on us. That pretty much says it all.
Actually it doesn't say anything at all, except that my life has become crazily busy and will remain that way for some time.

I guess it is way past time for me to explain, as well as to give you the updated information I have.

First: my contact informs me that the details I was previously given are still accurate -- that a super Legacy (nicknamed "The Big Boy") is still planned for release. In fact, Subaru has it essentially ready to go and could announce it any time they choose! The latest 2nd hand information on when that will be now reports an announcement next January. :(

I'm as disappointed as anyone, and it makes my decision on what to buy and when even more difficult.

Second, regarding my prolonged absence from this forum (and NASIOC too): I'm VP of Software and one of 3 partners at a small (23 employee) company. We haven't been rolling in cash, but we've had some success. Then we suddenly landed a number of very large contracts, all of which have timelines that collide in the first 6 months of this year. These contracts will likely see us racking up 150% growth or more this year!!! :o And there will be continued growth and spinoffs from them, as they are forcing a rapid (and overdue) diversification of our product lines.

At the same time we are overloaded we are facing a technology change. Some components we have been relying on are being phased out by the manufacturers, requiring us to adopt new technology that isn't supported by the operating system we have been using. So on top of everything else we are porting to a new OS platform and getting familiar with some new hardware. YIKES!

So I'm faced with far too much work, not enough people, and cash flow problems. Eventually when we ship these new systems we'll be rich (or as close to it as I've been yet) but until they ship we've got development and part costs that rapidly add up. I've got 4 programmers -- counting myself -- to do the work that I wish I had twice that many to do. Of course, if we had enough people I wouldn't have the office space to put them in anyway.

So at the end of January I started doing 11 hours a day, 6 days a week. In mid-February the pace picked up even more! :o I did have 2 consultants for 2 weeks to help us over a crunch (porting 110,000 lines of code to a new operating system). We may get one or both back in some capacity before all is said and done.

So please try to understand if I disappear again for weeks at a time. I'm just trying to make sure that I keep a roof over the head of my wife and children, and over the heads of all my employees and their children as well. I'm very cognizant that my responsibilities extend far beyond my own comfort, and I take those responsibilities seriously.

Gurpman, if you could spend a day in my shoes I think you'd retract your ignorant comment. I'll say no more about it.

[Gumby]

Nice to see you back waflowers.

[axis008]

Haha ouch for gurpman. Waflowers, i hope everything goes well with your company. Interesting information about "The Big Boy".

[titsataki]

I see this thing just like what is going on with the WRX and the STi. One or two years of Legacy GT. (like legacy 2005) and then a 2006 Legacy GT STi edition. Like an 02 WRX and here we have the 04 STi. :(

Me personally I am ready to put my money on a black STi and be done with it. :) Aftermarket leather seats can be had and aftermarket sunroof can be had as well.

I took a STi testdrive yesterday and even my wife driving it did not think of it as so hard core as people describe it. :)

Cheers

Nick

[Tide]

I want "The Big Boy". Come on Subaru!

At least announce in by Detroit 05. :)

[Tide]

Man, I have to run this site for another 12 months before I pick up this car. :(

[gurpman]

I'm VP of Software and one of 3 partners at a small (23 employee) company. We haven't been rolling in cash, but we've had some success. Then we suddenly landed a number of very large contracts, all of which have timelines that collide in the first 6 months of this year. These contracts will likely see us racking up 150% growth or more this year!!! :o ...

Wow, waflowers you're awesome!

Gurpman, if you could spend a day in my shoes I think you'd retract your ignorant comment. I'll say no more about it.

When I implied that this forum is more important than your job, I was being sarcastic. Get it?

Where's the love around here? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[SUBE555]

I think I'd be alright without Big Boy. Kevin is right in saying waiting is like waiting for a new computer to come out. You could always just keep waiting and waiting and never see that perfect one essentially.

Sometimes you just have to make it yourself. ;)

[team23jordan]

Man, I have to run this site for another 12 months before I pick up this car. :(
i'm sorry to hear that tide
i'm sure you'll be really tempted to buy legacy
when you see me and other members gettin this car
and brag about how amazing the car is :lol:

[ha-evolution]

Man, I have to run this site for another 12 months before I pick up this car. :(

Misery loves company - I think I'll be holding out too :)

[ha-evolution]

i'm sure you'll be really tempted to buy legacy
when you see me and other members gettin this car
and brag about how amazing the car is :lol:

If Subaru really wants to make the Legacy amazing they should put a DVD Audio system in the Legacy. I heard the new TL system yesterday and it was unbelievable. I never imagined a factory system could sound that good.

[SUBE555]

So was there any mention whether Big Boy would be forced induction or naturally aspirated?

[Gumby]

"Big Boy" might refer to the size of the turbo :twisted: :o 8) :D

[ha-evolution]

Oh yeah! T-66 or T-88 baby!

[waflowers]

The implication (as I interpreted it) was forced induction, but that may be my bias influencing my interpretation of what was said. I'm trying to give all of you as complete and detailed a picture as I have, without introducing too much personal bias. It isn't easy.

[SUBE555]

Yeah, see the complicationg I see it that the big boy could refer to displacement, 3.0L is bigger than 2.5L, while I wouldn't refer big boy with power I'd refer it with size. I would refer something like a mean name with a killer machine like Chevrolet has done with their new vette. But it all depends on who's working on the marketing end. It would be nice to see an EZ30-powered Legacy to help sales with those two extra cylinders, however I would hardly call it a revelation. Manufacturers have long since been decieving on overstating projects. I think several of us were a little underwhelmed with the 2.5GT at first, don't want to think it's something like a 300/300 Legacy and it's just the EZ30 in there. Nice to be sprised versus let down. I've been down that road more than once.

[skp]

so we have to wait till may 05 for the "big boy" or jan 05? can more people snoop around and find more info please????

i need to decide if i want to wait that long...btw if it's a 3.0L w/o turbo, then i'll pass...

[team23jordan]

never more big boy :lol:
inside joke cough seymore :lol:

[ha-evolution]

My guess is that Jan 05 would be the "big boy" announcement with the arrival in May 05. But if none of us buy a Legacy because we are waiting for the "big boy" we may end up with nada.

[P2x]

Well I'm gettin the GT, and then I'm tradin up to the "Big Boy" :) Assuming of course that "Big Boy" dosen't come with an all leather interior, which I see as a distinct possibility.

[SUBE555]

If it's their upper tier model, I'd make an ass out of u and me and say that it's more likely than naught to come as one trim and decked out. I'd think it would have been known as a performance or STi or something more to that note on trim if it were indeed a performance variant. The name in itself leads me to believe it's basically a 3.0R Limited type model.

[agctr]

Hey Everyone,

With all the hype surrounding the new Liberty/Legacy GT MY04/05, it seems as if Subaru is keeping the STi version very much behind closed doors. I have asked a few dealers down under about the Liberty GT STi version but all of them shrug their sholders and shake their heads saying, "never ever heard of it and if it does exist, it will never come down under".

A few of the local car mags are saying that the Libertiy GT STi (sizzling hot) version, is very alive and very much kicking and there is a big possibility of the STi showing up down under and kicking some serious EVO8 butt.

My question is, how are these guys (the mags) so sure it is coming down under if STi Australia doesnt even know it exists?

If anyone knows or can provide any information on South Pacific deliveries (including Asia, New Zealand & Australia) it would be greatly appreciated. I know its going to happen anyway but I dont want to trade up to a GT and find the STi Giant Killer is due a month later. If I hear of anything, I will keep you posted too..... :D Thanks

[SUBE555]

The mags are probably better connected with the higher-up than dealers are. At least that's how it is over here. The enthusiasts know about everything for the most part in advance of most dealers.

[MSB]

Hey Everyone,

A few of the local car mags are saying that the Libertiy GT STi (sizzling hot) version, is very alive and very much kicking and there is a big possibility of the STi showing up down under and kicking some serious EVO8 butt.

My question is, how are these guys (the mags) so sure it is coming down under if STi Australia doesnt even know it exists?


Maybe nothing sells magazine like a good headline, maybe truth and accuracy is just a bonus.

I would guess the people at Subaru will wait to see how the market reacts to the new car. I don't know how much local emission standards etc may affect any decision, but the 'gentlemans agreement' means that it probably won't come out in Japan, and that may affect any decision. And they are still working on the turbo before sending it to Europe - maybe the STi will be linked to that project.

[agctr]

Hmmm, not quite sure about the Mag thing either, although it will certainly be interesting to see if it does come here. During last year STi Australia brought out a J-Spec MY03 B4 STi nicknamed S401. Now inside sources at STi Australia said that they brought that out just to let people have a look at that model and for no other reason. A long and expensive trip to let a few people have a look I say. The WRX club here in Melbourne including a few select others were invited along to the showing.

Regarding the Gentleman's agreement, when I was asking Subaru about the GT STi, that very comment was thrown up as a reason why it wouldnt come here and also due to our fuel. Another comment given was, there is enough room in the development of the motor to give the power outputs that are being thrown around about the STi version, just not sure if the transmission and suspension could handle it.

[SUBE555]

Word is the EJ255/257 is supposed to come to the land down under soon. Perhaps that will help output as well. ;)

[MSB]

It must be hard when to produce an STi car that will able to comply to the various environmental and tax regs worldwide, as well as other simple considerations such as fuel availability

With the suspension/transmission that makes sense as the JDM auto is 20hp less that the manual, and so far all the spec B cars- which I guess are as near to an STi as you can currently get, have the bilstein suspension set-up.

They may make another STi, like the S401, just to say they can, but going into mass production may be a step too far, esp if marketing has shown most drivers are happy with the current choices, and anyone who does want something special will tweak the car themselves.

Personally I'm quite happy with 260hp esp. as it is just the main family car, when I want something with more power it'll probably be the same time as my midlife crisis - so a 911 it is.

[SUBE555]

(Did a little refresh to keep the info in the right places. ;))

Carry one. :)

[kage]

Well maybe I'm the only one, but I'm anticipating being more than happy enough with the performance of the Legacy GT. Happy enough that I won't even do any power mods during the warranty period. Once the warranty is done all bets are off, but having driven the Forester XT a couple of times and extrapolating from there (more power, less weight, better aerodynamics, better suspension, better tires) the GT will be plenty of car for my needs.

Kudos to Subaru if they bring an STi Legacy to market though. Never mind spanking Evos, you're looking at an M3 beater.

[cotmfk]

So, what's up with this? I don't feel like going back and reading this thread at the moment, although I am sure at some time of boredom I will! But if a quick synopsis could be made, that would be much appreciated! Thanks! :)

[ha-evolution]

Quick & Dirty Summary:

Waflowers has "predicted" that there will be a higher performance version of the Legacy (STi?) arriving in the US sometime in 2005.

Realistically the GT should be sufficient but for some of us more is always better. :wink:

[axis008]

Not really predicted, rather he has insider information. Hopefully it's accurate to some degree. I don't doubt him the least!

[ha-evolution]

Not really predicted, rather he has insider information. Hopefully it's accurate to some degree. I don't doubt him the least!

I was aware of that hence the quotes around predicted. I don't doubt his source either, just trying to keep it on the down low. :)

[axis008]

Haha okay.. :X shhh...

[cotmfk]

I just read through the WHOLE thread... WHEW!

Some good posts, some not so good. Best post so far, though:



Hopefully the Sti will have seats


:lol: :lol:

[axis008]

I just read through the WHOLE thread... WHEW!

Some good posts, some not so good. Best post so far, though:



Hopefully the Sti will have seats


:lol: :lol:Hahaha.. How funny! :P

[ha-evolution]

I could see Subaru leaving the seats out of the STi just because everybody complains about the seats so they you get to choose your own.

[cotmfk]

That would be cool, but I think it's too customized to be profitable? Considering how low production the Legacy STi would be, at least.

[speedmonkee]

Reading back in the first pages - you guys were arguing about seats and how much leather weighs for the GT and the non GT model.

My leather on my WRX weighs about 10lbs more. (Katzkin leather kit)
I also have heaters and massagers in my seats. They weigh about 5 lbs more. (actually, heaters are really light) The motors for the massagers are pretty small.)
I think the weight you guys were talking about comes from the 8 way and 4 way POWER seats. That stuff is heavy - motors and such.


my .02

I am waiting on the legacy GT and delaying til Sept just in case....

jeremy

[ha-evolution]

That would be cool, but I think it's too customized to be profitable? Considering how low production the Legacy STi would be, at least.

Uh, well anythings possible I guess. Of course I was only joking when I said that. A bit of a rib against the seat-whiners and the fact that I couldn't figure out where the "at least the STi will have seats" quote came from or meant.

[team23jordan]

Legacy STi should get recaro seat or sparco seat
they are soo much better than STi seats
hopefully they are not gonna use seats from USDM impreza STi
cuz they are made for 400lbs fat people

[SUBE555]

The JDM STi seats you've seen me put pictures up of before I'm told are actual Recaros. Not ultra JDM tight, might fit some of our mid to tighter framed Americans well.

I'm actually very curious about some of the new Sparco seats (in black only.)

Monza
http://www.sparcousa.com/prdImg/499.jpg

Siena
http://www.sparcousa.com/prdImg/504.jpg

The Milano and Tourino 2 are always nice as well though. :)

[cotmfk]

I am waiting on the legacy GT and delaying til Sept just in case....

jeremy

Welcome to the board!


I will probably be waiting until Dec 31, or right around there. If there is a performance Legacy coming, it should be announced by then, or the rumours will start looking very credible. If there is no news of a "big-boy" coming, then I will be able to get a regular Leg GT at a good discount. :) I am not in a huge rush to buy, anyways. :)

[ha-evolution]

I'm actually very curious about some of the new Sparco seats (in black only.)

The Milano and Tourino 2 are always nice as well though. :)

The new seats look cool, especially the blues for an STi fitment.

I tried the Torino at SEMA and it was way too tight in the upper body area for me - instant back pain. The Milano was perfect, especially in Leather. :wink:

[cotmfk]

I'm actually very curious about some of the new Sparco seats (in black only.)

The Milano and Tourino 2 are always nice as well though. :)

The new seats look cool, especially the blues for an STi fitment.

I tried the Torino at SEMA and it was way too tight in the upper body area for me - instant back pain. The Milano was perfect, especially in Leather. :wink:

Racing seats with leather are still a bit of an oxymoron for me, just my opinion. The Evo will be offering it as a stock option for the 2004s, though! I still want leather in my Legacy, though, if I were to get one!

[kage]

I would think the majority of the weight difference between the GT and GT Limited is in the moonroof. Lots of glass + reinforcement around the opening.

[SUBE555]

I'm actually very curious about some of the new Sparco seats (in black only.)

The Milano and Tourino 2 are always nice as well though. :)

The new seats look cool, especially the blues for an STi fitment.

I tried the Torino at SEMA and it was way too tight in the upper body area for me - instant back pain. The Milano was perfect, especially in Leather. :wink:

Racing seats with leather are still a bit of an oxymoron for me, just my opinion. The Evo will be offering it as a stock option for the 2004s, though! I still want leather in my Legacy, though, if I were to get one!

The seats that I look at aren't 'race' seats, they're sport/street adjustable seats. When I think of race seats, they're solid and padded for a specific driver.

[ha-evolution]

I was looking at street-use seats also. I'm not enough of a masochist to put racing seats in a daily driver.

[waflowers]

Not really predicted, rather he has insider information. Hopefully it's accurate to some degree. I don't doubt him the least!
Thanks, although there are times I begin to doubt myself!

[cotmfk]

I was looking at street-use seats also. I'm not enough of a masochist to put racing seats in a daily driver.

Looks like I went a little too far! Oh well.. point taken! :P

[MSB]

I haven't bothered reading through all 9 pages, but I wonder if waflowers sources story on the "big boy" will be any different since they previewed the 3.0l spec B @ Geneva.

[SUBE555]

MSB, that is my take on it. Big boy, big meaning more displacement, hence 3.0L H6. *shrug*

[cotmfk]

There seems to be no actual power difference between the 2.5 GT and the 3.0R. Just 2.5 T versus 3.0 NA. I think that's very weird. Why would you offer two of the same cars with the same amount of power, but different engines? It seems too close to me, like the models would cannibalize each other's sales.

[dimil]

MSB, that is my take on it. Big boy, big meaning more displacement, hence 3.0L H6. *shrug*


Some people say 'Size does matter" and some say "It's how you use it"

(Hey I'm talking about 2.5 Turbo vs 3.0 NA :) )

[dimil]

There seems to be no actual power difference between the 2.5 GT and the 3.0R. Just 2.5 T versus 3.0 NA. I think that's very weird. Why would you offer two of the same cars with the same amount of power, but different engines? It seems too close to me, like the models would cannibalize each other's sales.

This is U.S.A. some people here prefer displacment over Forced Induction.
Same with wagons here. It's all about reputation in this country.
So it's one of the few places that it would work.

[MSB]

There seems to be no actual power difference between the 2.5 GT and the 3.0R. Just 2.5 T versus 3.0 NA. I think that's very weird. Why would you offer two of the same cars with the same amount of power, but different engines? It seems too close to me, like the models would cannibalize each other's sales.

This is U.S.A. some people here prefer displacment over Forced Induction.
Same with wagons here. It's all about reputation in this country.
So it's one of the few places that it would work.

Just what I was going to say, but I can't type fast enough.

[SUBE555]

What you guys are only looking at is horsepower. You forgot to mention the torque. 250lb-ft for the turbo model, 219 for the H6 model. ;) That's a big difference if you ask me, well particularly that the EJ25 Turbo starts at that (less any reflashes. ;))

The USDM H6 engine was tuned to hit that peak HP number as torque was sacrificed a little compared to other countries that make around 243-245hp and about 224lb-ft of torque.

Just some food for thought. :)

[agctr]

What ever Subaru decide to bring out, 2.5 or 3.0 the STi version will have to have more pep to out do them all. It just amazing why STi have'nt launched any plans to slide the 2.5 donk into the WRX especially in the Asian/Pacific region of the world. Could the 2.5 manual version of the GT be used primarily to get the USA and Euro market on board? Whatever the reason, its all good from where I stand. I just cant wait for the 2.5 manual version to come down under.

To jump in on the seat debate, has anyone seen the seats now offered in the Porsche GT2 2004? Wow they very functional and look darn sexy. Price is another issue though........

[cotmfk]

What you guys are only looking at is horsepower. You forgot to mention the torque. 250lb-ft for the turbo model, 219 for the H6 model. ;) That's a big difference if you ask me, well particularly that the EJ25 Turbo starts at that (less any reflashes. ;))

The USDM H6 engine was tuned to hit that peak HP number as torque was sacrificed a little compared to other countries that make around 243-245hp and about 224lb-ft of torque.

Just some food for thought. :)

Good point, Sube. I hadn't known the torque figures for the car, instead I just assumed it was at least close to 250! Honda and Toyota started the trend of high HP low torque, and it seems more manufacturers are following. It's such an annoying idea! Torque is what makes the car accelerate quickly, HP is for top speed.

[SUBE555]

They always said horsepower sells cars and torque wins races. :) It's VERY true, particularly in the U.S. That and anything with greater numbers, 6MT instead of 5, 6cyl instead of a good 4, etc, etc is why a Boxer6 still is a good idea for the USDM.

[dimil]

What you guys are only looking at is horsepower. You forgot to mention the torque. 250lb-ft for the turbo model, 219 for the H6 model. ;) That's a big difference if you ask me, well particularly that the EJ25 Turbo starts at that (less any reflashes. ;))

The USDM H6 engine was tuned to hit that peak HP number as torque was sacrificed a little compared to other countries that make around 243-245hp and about 224lb-ft of torque.

Just some food for thought. :)

You know that and I know that. So many people who care about performance.

Experiment:
Go to local grocery store or supermarket and ask 100 people that come in to the store and ask them a question on what kind of car they drive and what HP number and torque of that car.
I wonder if 20% of people will be able to answer that question.


So it does matter, the questions is to whom?

[apexjapan]

Honda and Toyota started the trend of high HP low torque, and it seems more manufacturers are following. It's such an annoying idea! Torque is what makes the car accelerate quickly, HP is for top speed.

Because market researchers quickly discovered that nearly the only power figure that people brag about is horsepower. Torque is nearly never mentioned. Also not discussed is the actual power curves. Even having high hp and torque numbers doesn't actually mean that much, if they are both up high and there is no hp/torque before 4500rpm.

Then there is power/weight ratios. I don't know how many times I've heard X is superior to Y because it does have more hp, yet X weighs 4000lbs while Y weighs 3000lbs, negating any power advantage.

In general, I tend to vote towards the 4-cylinder motors in Subaru's lineup over the H6's. The 4's have simply had more development time, and they are able to get a lot more out of them at this point in time. That may change in the future, but the here and now is what I worry about.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen

[agctr]

I went to the Melbourne AutoSalon on the weekend which was fantastic. There were plenty of WRX's totally done up including (apparently) the world's first convertible WRX which is something to be seen. The whole car has been gutted and the drivers seat is in the middle, very classy!

Anyway, there were a few Liberty B4's there which looked fantastic. Very stock on the outside but sensational under the skin. I spoke to a few of the Subaru guys onsite and they hinted at the GT STi version but couldnt confirm anything (of course). Im sure when the STi GT version does come down under, it will surprise a lot of people especially in the EVO camp and in the dyno shoot outs.

The manual edition of the GT will be coming down under this year although a true confirmation date has not been given. I will keep you all posted as more information comes to hand. :o

[SteVTEC]

Honda and Toyota started the trend of high HP low torque, and it seems more manufacturers are following. It's such an annoying idea! Torque is what makes the car accelerate quickly, HP is for top speed.

Because market researchers quickly discovered that nearly the only power figure that people brag about is horsepower. Torque is nearly never mentioned. Also not discussed is the actual power curves. Even having high hp and torque numbers doesn't actually mean that much, if they are both up high and there is no hp/torque before 4500rpm.

Then there is power/weight ratios. I don't know how many times I've heard X is superior to Y because it does have more hp, yet X weighs 4000lbs while Y weighs 3000lbs, negating any power advantage.

In general, I tend to vote towards the 4-cylinder motors in Subaru's lineup over the H6's. The 4's have simply had more development time, and they are able to get a lot more out of them at this point in time. That may change in the future, but the here and now is what I worry about.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
Damn straight! :)

Here is some dyno analysis that I did of a Nissan VQ30DE (190hp 95-99 Maxima) vs a Toyota 1MZ-FE (194hp - Camry) and a Honda J30A1 (200hp 98-02 Accord V6) - all 3.0L V6 NA engines. Even though the Honda tops the others in terms of peak horsepower above 5000 rpm, it has so little usable torque below 4k that it's just ridiculous. It feels and performs more like a 4-cylinder in normal driving.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/stevtecv6/dynos/NHT_30V6_HP_SM_j30eststock.jpg (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/stevtecv6/dynos/NHT_30V6_HP_MD_j30eststock.jpg) http://mywebpages.comcast.net/stevtecv6/dynos/NHT_30V6_TQ_SM_j30eststock.jpg (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/stevtecv6/dynos/NHT_30V6_TQ_MD_j30eststock.jpg)

The Honda guys didn't like me very much after that. But there was really no basis for the flames because the dynos were all legit and I've personally owned vehicles with all three of those engines so I wasn't being biased either.

I don't really think Toyota has been trying to "trick" people with the high-HP low-TQ "game". Honda has been the primary culprit on that. There really haven't been a lot of high-revving Toyota engines in the US. The only US car with VVTL-i is Toyota's 2ZZ-GE (co-developed with Yamaha) and that's only in the Celica GT-S and a version of the Matrix. Honda's list of high-hp low-tq engines is endless. I'm happy to see that Nissan has been taking a "don't care" approach to it all and giving people what they need - torque! They do have a variable lift high rev system called NeoVVL, but only in Japan. The SR20VE. They also have a crazy turboed version of it, the SR20VET - the first engine with both variable lift valve timing and a turbo. I forget the engine but it's listed in the engine matrix at FreshAlloy.com. Paul might know too.

The other thing that marketers (and kids) love to brag about is horsepower-per-liter. I find it funny how this is what all of the marketers and kids talk about. Yet in design documentation by the same companies written by the engineers themselves and published in SAE papers, the engineers all brag about TORQUE-per-liter. LOL


Steve

[speedmonkee]

Waflowers:

Any updates on the BIG BOY? Just curious. Now, that the LEG GT's are almost here, I am in quandary - just wondering if I should hold out til the end of the year to wait for the BIG BOY.

[SUBE555]

Waflowers has been abscent for a bit, likely work is, well, overworking him. :P

As noted before, at this point, I can't imagine it will be much more than an H6 version, and from hearing no other reports of this, it could have been something, but Subaru generally isn't known for pulling new models in mid-model year.

[Drift Monkey]

Keep waiting everyone...more selection for me! :twisted:

[agctr]

The Big Boy theory, hmmm bit like the big bang theory, we sort of know about it but we dont really. By the amount of interest just in this string, Im sure Scooby would be more than happy with the interest the STi is creating.

[gtguy]

But typically on these boards, there are lots of talkers and few buyers. And don't forget that Subaru has to sell enough to real people to make it worthwhile. The Legacy/Outback is the volume car, that they will be less-inclined to mess with.

This is why rumors of twin-turbo H6es with 350hp and stuff like that aren't likely to happen, particularly when you consider that the STi history has been braking and suspension mods, with some power upgrades that aren't all that significant. The USDM STi got 300hp, but the rest of the world had 280 or so anyhow, so it wasn't a huge leap.

Kevin

[Drift Monkey]

The USDM STi got 300hp, but the rest of the world had 280 or so anyhow, so it wasn't a huge leap.
"Rated at" 280hp.

[waflowers]

Waflowers has been abscent for a bit, likely work is, well, overworking him. :P
You could say that. I'm tired of working 7 days a week, 13 or more hours a day.

Not so long ago I got to the office at 10:30am Sunday, left at 7:10am Monday, grabbed a bite to eat, 40 minutes nap, shower and changed then back to the office.

We're looking for another person to hire for the software department ... finally!

No new news except reiterations of "it is real" and "it will be here ... eventually".

I was contacted less than 2 weeks ago to see if I wanted the #1 Legacy GT to arrive at Mastro. I've had $1000 deposit with them for over a year now. My sales guy (Sean) told me I could take my pick of the first to arrive, but that I'd be happier if I waited a bit longer (know what I really want in a car).

I chose to wait.

Curious that a sales guy would discourage a sale, isn't it?

P.S. After today I'll probably drop out of sight again for another month of insanity at the office. Hopefully things will finally calm down in July. If not, this pace will (literally) kill me; I'm not a young guy like most of you on this forum anymore and the hours and stress are taking their toll. :(

[speedmonkee]

Waflowers:

Thanks for the response. That is very curious why a salesman would tell you to wait.

That's all I needed to know!

Keeping fingers and toes crossed.

J

[gt_ltd]

I emailed SoA and got the following reply today: :(


Thank you for visiting the Subaru Web site and for your interest in Subaru products. I am not aware of any new 'high performance' Legacy coming in September of 2004. As far as I am aware, the 2005 Legacy models, including the 2005 Legacy GT Limited models, are the only Legacy models we will be offering this year. While we do not provide future information, we would have heard, including all of the media by now, of a new Legacy model due to arrive in a couple of months.

Thank you for the opportunity to be of assistance. If you need any future assistance, please feel free to contact us.

Best wishes,

<name withdrawn>
Subaru of America, Inc.
-----------------------------------------------------------
YOUR ORIGINAL MAIL:

I was about to order a 05 Legacy GT Ltd. until I read that there is a 'high performance' Legacy coming around Sep 04 (the site quoted a SoA rep. source). I will wait if it is indeed coming in 2004 (I have already waited forever for the 2005 GT, so a few more months won't hurt much), otherwise I will order a GT Ltd. right away. Could you please tell me whether 'good things happen to whose who wait?' I don't want to get a GT Ltd. now and be happy for only a few months, and then regret for years.

[Dr. Zevil]

I have though all along how stupid SOA would be to offer that car this year. They can't downplay the all new legacy with a performance version of itself.. the GT IS thier performance version for this year. You might see a spec-b version next year but I would not hold my breath from anything with the name STi on it. They don't offer one overseas yet.

[akm3]

The purpose of the STi was to reinvigorate the Subaru image/word of mouth and get Subaru back on the cover of car magazines, like the WRX did. The WRX went through a fad phase. Then the STi. Now the Legacy GT, and in a year or two when the furor dies down, there will be something 'new' to entice us.

Will it be a higher trim level Legacy? I can hope so. It would be to sell more Legacies just like STi was to sell more Imprezas.

If STi is plastered over it tastefully and comes in WRB with Brembos, BBS wheels, sportier seats that also say STi (again tastefully), 6 speed, SpecB bumpers (or a US rated equivalent 'look at me' bodykit upgrade), and a slight power increase (280/280 or so) it will be PERFECT for *me*.

I don't think it would make sense for Subaru to have TWO STi's that put out 300/300 hp. A Legacy STi competes in my mind too much with an Impreza STi.

UNLESS: They made the Legacy STi wagon only :twisted:

-Allen

[Dr. Zevil]

UNLESS: They made the Legacy STi wagon only :twisted:

-Allen

Wouldn't that be something.....

[Drift Monkey]

I don't think it would make sense for Subaru to have TWO STi's that put out 300/300 hp. A Legacy STi competes in my mind too much with an Impreza STi.
I does to me. THe two cars are marketed for different groups and therefore, will probably sell to different groups.

[akm3]

If a Legacy STi with all the go-fast Impreza bits and bling came out, who would buy an Impreza STi?

I mean, at that point what possible reason does the Impreza have to exist?

The only thing I could think of is if the Legacy STi is so much more expensive then the Impreza STi that they compete in completely different demographics.

Personally, I'm torn between an Impreza STi or a Legacy GT. A Legacy STi would end the internal struggle.

-Allen

[gt_ltd]

I dunno, but I won't buy an Impreza STi anyway (at least for now) since (1) I don't like the interior quality, (2) I am pretty sure it will attract some retarded kids to street race me, (3) it is kinda small, (4) insurance cost is crazy, and (5) it will get vandalized easily.

I know an ex-WRX wagon owner who owns a last-gen. ///M3 and a new 325xi, even though he likes the Impreza STi, he won't buy one for pretty much the same reasons stated above ($31K doesn't seem to be an issue for him). We are both interested in the new Legacy GT.

I'd have got an Impreza STi when I was still in college, but now it is just "too much" for me as a daily car. I am 27 and single :), btw.

If a Legacy STi with all the go-fast Impreza bits and bling came out, who would buy an Impreza STi?

I mean, at that point what possible reason does the Impreza have to exist?

[akm3]

I am 27 and single as well, and the 5 reasons you mentioned are some of the main reasons I lean towards the Legacy GT.

Yet, for me the Legacy is just a bit TOO sedate. I want something in the middle...I want a Legacy STi :) A touch of bling and a touch of sophistication for a reasonable price...

Oh well, maybe some year.

-Allen

[3.75L H6]

Maybe they'll make the Legacy STi as a 2006 model and price it around 35 grand, maybe drop the Impreza STi down to 30 to spead their market competitors. Or they could differentiate by upping the Impreza STi's #s / performance, while putting the Leg STi as more luxury to justify the version. Either way, the STi will need to grow to compete with the new Evo's, and the GT and/or its 'performance' version will need to compete with the Mazdaspeed 6, etc.

Or maybe the Impreza STi will revert to a coupe version, the only 4-door STi could be the Legacy, justifying both models.

Fun to wildly speculate on the future of Subaru! :D

One more thing, I'm arguing for the GT here: [it gets good on page 2 :twisted: ]
http://www.fastcarforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6970
Any ideas would sure help! :D

[akm3]

All of the things you mentioned would be cool twists but to me it seems unlikely :(

a) Subaru lowers the price of the STi...Doubtful. Very rare for any car mfg to lower the price of a car.

b) Coupe STi, unlikely. To do that they'd also need a coupe Impreza which would be much more expensive and cannot be justified by the volumes. Also, a lot of people are attracted to the STi because it is high performance AND practical, a coupe isn't practical.

c) Rev up the STi's performance. THIS is far more likely then the other two. If they pull a "OK Here is your 300/300 Legacy STi, and the 375/375 Impreza STi for the hardcore enthusiasts!" . Unfortunately, it seems that they are taking the Impreza STi more on the road to bloat/luxury rather then making it a harder core performer. The current 05 is already 35lbs heavier then the 04 and now comes with a radio standard (for $1600 more)...This is the wrong direction for STi in my opinion.

d) This option would be to discontinue the Impreza STi and use the Legacy STi as the new Halo car. This might make some sense, keeping one 'halo' ultra performance car to highlight whatever latest model they want to and generate additional buzz. I can't speculate on if that is likely or not, but Mazda did it with their MazdaSpeed Protege (I think that is no longer available, but now you can get a MazdaSpeed Miata)
e) They have no plans for a Legacy STi.


Ultimately, consumer demand will prevail; if the research shows enough people will buy Legacy STi's to make it profitable, they'll do it.

*I BELIEVE* one of their major factors in researching this is how many people buy the Legacy GT in a sedan with the STi options like the PINK pedals, door sills, Shift Knobs, etc that they are offering on the current legacy GT. I think it is an "OK, do Legacy buyers want STi stuff" type of test marketing.

So, my theory is if a significant portion of Legacy buyers purchase pink pedals for their Legacy, we'll get a pink Legacy.

-Allen

[coolbluelb]

Right or wrong, an STi version of the Legacy would all but require a turbo six. Here are my reasons, feel free to pick them apart:

-While the Impreza STi engine can easily be tweeked for more power, it is not clear that this can be done from the factory (with warranty), while still being driven on 91 octane fuel. If you want more than 300/300, you need a turbo six.

-An STi Legacy with a turbo four will never break out of a small niche market. As recognized repeatedly elsewhere, Subaru is not marketing to the Impreza crowd (expect maybe current owners who want something more upscale) with the Leg. As much as I hate it, Americans associate power and prestige with more cylinders, or, you can't lure a prospective M3 purchaser away from BMW with a turbo four Subaru.

-A turbo four Legacy with power and price similar to the STi Impreza would blur the line between the two cars, especially if the Leg proved to be a better handler as the JDM Spec B's have done. This would adversely affect the STi more so than the Leg (in my opinion).

-Finally, if Subaru does plan on bringing a further-boosted version of the Legacy to the USDM, they need to not name it STi. While STi means performance to you, myself, and the rest of the world, it means Fast & Furious to the US masses. Again, if you want to take away from M3's and S4's (and that would be an STi Legacy's market), then Subaru should badge the car as a Legacy Spec B or something similarly non-descript.

OK, my thoughts on way too little sleep. Have fun...

:evil:

[SUBE555]

First of all, welcome gt_ltd! The letter you got is standard, unless you know someone on the inside ;) you'll keep getting that, even if the car was coming out tomorrow and it was already sitting on a display for a show for tomorrow. Same blah, blah. It's more of a competition thing than anything, the one-upmanship, don't want to give away your secrets early.

I completely agree with your reasons for buying a GT, hell I'm 22 and I've been waiting for a turbo Legacy for the last 4 years for all those reasons. Does that make me old before my time? :lol:

As per the comment from someone about the Impreza WRX STi not needing to exist, well, as noted, it is there to invigorate people when some of the fanfare dies down a bit, something new, something fresh. It is there to fill a need, those who wanted the ultimate no-holds barred driving machine. Okay, it has a few shortcomings- weight mostly, but it does pretty well, and with the right driver, can downright be a killer competition machine. That's what it's built for, the Legacy GT is a touring machine, a budget executive driving machine (think WAflowers for one ;)), and more. They fit two different demographics.

I tend to think/hope things will run something like his over the next couple of years (though it may disappoint some.)
-05 Legacy GT
-06 Legacy 3.0R introduced (maybe with a manual, maybe not, considering USDM, I'd be hesitant)
-07 Legacy Spec B or STi model introduced (I'd prefer a performance package for insurance reasons, you could get the performance with any trim level, and not all aspects require significant reworking that adds bling and un-needed cost)
-07 also reworks the Impreza lineup which should drop a significant amount of weight, perhaps get a little smaller, and the line refocused, the STi models would really differ at this point

The more I look at it, the more it keeps looking towards that theory, but things can change again. At this point, it looks the most logical though.

Each year, something must be added to really change things up, for '06, it will probably be just adding the H6 to the Legacy line (probably didn't add it initially as it gave them a big new thing for at least one year.) I also think the H6 may be a requirement to get any serious recognition in the sports car arena for a Spec B/STi model. Numbers count, particularly in the USDM. An H6 turbo setup may be destined for the Legacy, but I think it's still ideal for the 4-cylinder turbos to stay in the Impreza line to keep the sporting weight, simplicity, and image. Add 2 cylinders to the Impreza and it's way beyond a rally car then. It probably won't need much boost to exceed above 300hp, probably in the area of 11lbs or less. That's good though, has the ability to stay more efficient at least while being able to unleash a fury at a moments notice.

[Drift Monkey]

If a Legacy STi with all the go-fast Impreza bits and bling came out, who would buy an Impreza STi?

I mean, at that point what possible reason does the Impreza have to exist?

The only thing I could think of is if the Legacy STi is so much more expensive then the Impreza STi that they compete in completely different demographics.

Personally, I'm torn between an Impreza STi or a Legacy GT. A Legacy STi would end the internal struggle.

-Allen
Look at the JDM. The Legacy and Impreza are at comparable power levels. There a more things than just power that make a car.

[akm3]

If a Legacy STi with all the go-fast Impreza bits and bling came out, who would buy an Impreza STi?

I mean, at that point what possible reason does the Impreza have to exist?

The only thing I could think of is if the Legacy STi is so much more expensive then the Impreza STi that they compete in completely different demographics.

Personally, I'm torn between an Impreza STi or a Legacy GT. A Legacy STi would end the internal struggle.

-Allen
Look at the JDM. The Legacy and Impreza are at comparable power levels. There a more things than just power that make a car.

Well, like what?

In America we don't get all the fancy/schmancy Legacy luxury options like Nav and whatnot.

Given the price comparison between the standard WRX and the Legacy GT, I can't understand why anyone would buy a WRX (unless they wanted a 2.0 liter engine to compete somewhere (which the STi doesn't offer as an advantage) or they want to Fast and the Furious-ify it.) Same with the hypothetical Legacy STi, assuming similar prices and power why would you buy an Impreza STi? Only thing it has is a more FATF image.

I'm not trying to be combatitive, I really just don't understand how these cars would NOT step on each other's toes in the American marketplace.

-Allen

[Drift Monkey]

I dunno, but I won't buy an Impreza STi anyway (at least for now) since (1) I don't like the interior quality, (2) I am pretty sure it will attract some retarded kids to street race me, (3) it is kinda small, (4) insurance cost is crazy, and (5) it will get vandalized easily.

I know an ex-WRX wagon owner who owns a last-gen. ///M3 and a new 325xi, even though he likes the Impreza STi, he won't buy one for pretty much the same reasons stated above ($31K doesn't seem to be an issue for him). We are both interested in the new Legacy GT.

I'd have got an Impreza STi when I was still in college, but now it is just "too much" for me as a daily car. I am 27 and single :), btw.

If a Legacy STi with all the go-fast Impreza bits and bling came out, who would buy an Impreza STi?

I mean, at that point what possible reason does the Impreza have to exist?
Someone has alreayd mentioned a few...

[gtguy]

akm, my dealer said essentially the same thing, that with the WRX and Legacy GT sedan priced as they are, why would anyone buy a WRX?

My answer was that the WRX still has the extroverted, rally-bred performance cred, where the Legacy is "someone's father's car." Certain young'uns wouldn't be caught dead driving a mid-sized family sedan.

I think it explains why the styling of the Impreza has gotten more adolescent, for lack of a better descriptive. It's a definitely young-trending car now, with the redesign.

Kevin

[SC GT]

*I BELIEVE* one of their major factors in researching this is how many people buy the Legacy GT in a sedan with the STi options like the PINK pedals, door sills, Shift Knobs, etc that they are offering on the current legacy GT. I think it is an "OK, do Legacy buyers want STi stuff" type of test marketing.

So, my theory is if a significant portion of Legacy buyers purchase pink pedals for their Legacy, we'll get a pink Legacy.

-Allen

Not to stray too far off topic, but Subaruparts.com lists the aluminum WRX pedals (with BLACK rubber knobs) for $47.94. I'd much rather have those in a black Ltd. sedan than the pink ones. Whoever gets delivery of their 5MT Legacy first, can you check to see how well those pedals will fit?

[gt_ltd]

A few years ago (the college days...) when I was looking to buy a new car, the sales guy tried to sell me a new 1999 Legacy GT, even though I kinda liked it after a test-drive, I got something else b/c I didn't think I was old enough to be driving a Legacy... I'd very likely have got a WRX if it was available.

akm, my dealer said essentially the same thing, that with the WRX and Legacy GT sedan priced as they are, why would anyone buy a WRX?

My answer was that the WRX still has the extroverted, rally-bred performance cred, where the Legacy is "someone's father's car." Certain young'uns wouldn't be caught dead driving a mid-sized family sedan.

I think it explains why the styling of the Impreza has gotten more adolescent, for lack of a better descriptive. It's a definitely young-trending car now, with the redesign.

Kevin

[Th3Franz]

Even though I'm young, I still love the styling of the Legacy GT. I like the WRX too, but the sleak look of the GT sedan really appeals to me. I finally got the official 05 brochure in the mail today, and the black sedan fold-out looks awesome. :D

[Sub-attraction]

How'd you get it, do tell. I want one.

[Th3Franz]

I'm nice to a salesman at the local dealership. He sent me one. :D

[gt_ltd]

Are you talking about the 05 or 04 Legacy? IMO the new one looks way better than the old one, except for the front bumper. :( I still don't see myself getting the last-gen Legacy now, even if 05 didn't exist.

Even though I'm young, I still love the styling of the Legacy GT.

[Th3Franz]

Are you talking about the 05 or 04 Legacy? IMO the new one looks way better than the old one, except for the front bumper. :( I still don't see myself getting the last-gen Legacy now, even if 05 didn't exist.

Even though I'm young, I still love the styling of the Legacy GT.
Talking 05. The front bumper is fine in person, IMHO. The 04 looks.. eh..

[3.75L H6]

I'm probably the youngest one here, and I love the sexy new GT. [minus the orange light plastic... lol] I love the Impreza, like he said, more adolecent styling, which is perfect for rally-inspired cars, but the new Leggy is the "entry-luxo-midsize" -- therefore its rightfully the most classic-looking Subaru to be produced of the past 5 years. Not to say its fender, side lines, and the scoop don't make it look lean and muscular, cues that I think Subaru will use for some time. Even the OB looks like its built to slice throughthe gravel and dust with the SWRT swoosh on the side. By balancing the styling like they've done, Subaru maintains one of its unique qualities that is no where else in the market.


I have that same foldout taped to my wall right next to my monitor, lol! Great shot. Got the full brochures at Burt.

555-your progression sounds about on the mark, and hopefully the bigwigs in Indiana/New Jersey/Tokyo don't miss it! :P

[SUBE555]

Franz, I should stop over at your place! You've been getting more attention there than me!

I'm 22 and love the new Leg, wanted a turbo Leg since I was 18, didn't want to be part of the status quo and be all WRX-ish. Not that a WRX is a bad car or something I wouldn't mind for just racing, it's just the Leg offers a lot more for what you get. Some days though I feel like I'm old driving a GT, dunno why.

[Drift Monkey]

I'm probably the youngest one here...
So how old ARE you?

[akm3]

I think the styling on the 04 Legacy GT was pretty nice too! But the older Legacy GT's with the hood scoops were awesome! (I think that'd be 2001, they have the headlights from the 04 but the scoops (They got rid of all the scoops when the WRX came out))

It looks like a japanese B4 Blitzen so it was my fav :) The 05 Spec B is the best looking though.

-Allen

[Th3Franz]

Franz, I should stop over at your place! You've been getting more attention there than me!
haha. Yeah I was surprised when Dan sent me the brochure.. I think I'm going to hang the GT sedan fold-out picture in my cubicle at work and then people will wonder what it is. :D
So would a GT make other people think I'm older? Maybe I'd finally be able to get into a bar.. 8) :P

[agctr]

Seen a lot of pictures of the new GT with the WRX air intake box, what do u think it would look like in real, thumbs up or down?

Curious if it would create a bad drag effect over the car ?

[SUBE555]

The stock airbox as some have said is supposed to flow rather decent up to some 350chp or so. Plenty for my sake.

The more stock looking, the better. ;)

[Drift Monkey]

Does it still feed into the fender?

[SUBE555]

From what I recall Paul mentioning, no. I think he said it does without the elbow and the extra 'junk' now.

[Drift Monkey]

Well then, so need to mod whatsoever! Intakes are a probably a waste on these cars...

[SUBE555]

From several big name tuners, they aren't a recommendation unless you're breaking around 350chp on WRX's. Just mainly produce too many extra things to correct for in ECU tuning. Especially units like the AEM CAI's and some of the Short-Rams.

[Drift Monkey]

Thats how it is for the WRX, so I assumed it carried over.

[SUBE555]

I would take that for all Subaru forced induction models. It's much more of a bling thing. On many of the WRX forums a lot of n00b's keep asking if that and an MBC are the first things to do. Gets tiring, not what the few ask, what are the shortcomings of the WHOLE car, like adding some better suspension components, brakes, rubber, whatever.

I'm sure it will happen here too in time as the car becomes popular.

[Drift Monkey]

Rubber seems to be the best upgrade choice then (ala WRX again).

[Gumby]

Lets give the RE92A's a fair go first, they might be considerable better especially in the lower aspect ratio.

[racerdave]

If they have the same compound and big, squirmy tread blocks, I'm not holding out much hope...

[gtguy]

Like the WRX's RE-92s, I'm not driving a block on mine. Blizzaks will go on the stock wheels, and the P1s will go on the car.

It isn't that I have anything particular against RE-92s, I just don't believe in all-season tires.

Kevin

[Gumby]

They aren't ideal for the climate I live in either, summer tires would be ideal but one or two trips to Tahoe a year where there might be snow makes those trips risky.

[Drift Monkey]

One benefit of living in TX i guess. No need to get winter tires. Summer tires all year round!

[gt_ltd]

I just found this at http://www.subaru.com/home/faqs/faq_future.jsp :

2. Is Subaru considering offering the Legacy B4 in the United States?
There are no plans at this time to offer the Legacy B4 in the United States.

I don't believe there will be anything new coming this year.

[Tide]

The "Legacy B4" is simply a Legacy "Sedan". The Spec.B and "S401" are the performance Legacys that have existed elsewhere.

I just found this at http://www.subaru.com/home/faqs/faq_future.jsp :

2. Is Subaru considering offering the Legacy B4 in the United States?
There are no plans at this time to offer the Legacy B4 in the United States.

I don't believe there will be anything new coming this year.

[Tide]

No, I think Subaru will wait until 06' to make any changes to the line. I've not known them to add things mid product cycle. :(

[gt_ltd]

Hows the B4 diff. from our GT, besides the bumpers and DVD navi system?

The "Legacy B4" is simply a Legacy "Sedan". The Spec.B and "S401" are the performance Legacys that have existed elsewhere.

I just found this at http://www.subaru.com/home/faqs/faq_future.jsp :

2. Is Subaru considering offering the Legacy B4 in the United States?
There are no plans at this time to offer the Legacy B4 in the United States.

I don't believe there will be anything new coming this year.

[SUBE555]

The B4 means sedan, Touring Wagon is the wagon models. B4 is not a performance term. Their models are still called GT's. Just 2.0GT's per their displacement.

[axis008]

It's not they just haven't updated that part of the site. :)

[agctr]

For the moment the name B4 has been washed out with the old model. The thing that I dont understand is, the GT has NO markings on the car at all (except the sensational slit in the bonnet) to show any difference to the other models. A least the last preformance liberty had the B4 tag and its suprising how many ppl know what u are taking about when u say u have a B4. I suppose its a bit like AMG @ Merc and M @ BMW.

Then again, the sleeper facter comes into play too