Performance Potential and Aftermarket Support?

[Nocturnal]

Hey wats up fella's?

I'm currently a 2004 Acura TSX 6MT owner, but am wanting to trade it in for a car with more performance potential. One of the cars thats caught my eye lately is the Legacy. I test drove a AUTO 2.5GT Limited, and wasn't too impressed with it, didn't feel like 250hp. I definatley want it in a manual, so i'm hoping the manual is better (the dealership didn't have a manual in stock to test drive).

Anyways.. I was wondering, what kind of performance potential does the Legacy have? Can it be tuned as much as the WRX can? Basically I want a car with more luxury than a WRX or an EVO, but still have AWD (or RWD) and good performance potential.

What kind of aftermarket support do you guys see for this car?

And to the owners of a 2.5GT w/manual transmission, how do you like it?


And do you guys think 400whp is a realistic number to be aiming at with this car?

Thanks to those who reply :)

- Najeeb

[apexjapan]

And do you guys think 400whp is a realistic number to be aiming at with this car?

Hey, if you have the money for that. It'll cost more than the car, though.

Beyond that, an actual 400whp will be somewhat unusable anywhere outside of a dragstrip, or without significant and major work to the suspension, wheels and brakes. Along with the transmission. And rear and front differentials.

If that's your actual goal, I'd start with an STi, for you are going to need most of it's drivetrain components as a simple starting base.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com

[agctr]

Have to agree with Paul on this one, 400whp is going to very unusable unless u are aiming at driving it on the limit all the time as it will be a DOG to get off the line all the time especially in city traffic. By the time u upgrade all the components you will basically have a kit car made up of brand name parts that will add up to one massive credit card bill.

There are a few guys that I met at the Auto Salon this year in Melboure who drive R34 GTR's with 515kw and 525Kw at the wheels. Massive power but say they cant really be driven around the streets as u need to load up the power just to get them off the line.

Then again if you decide to go for it, keeps us up to date, always good to have bragging rights.

[Nocturnal]

Well I am a guy who loves to modify cars :)

Cheq out my old V6 Accord (RIP):
http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/view_page.pl?page_id=284669&make_type_query=make%3 DHonda&model_brand_query=model%3DAccord&tree=Honda %20Accord


But yes, daily drivability would be my number one concern.


If not 400whp, WHAT kind of power potential do you guys see coming from this car?

Thanks for all the help guys :)

[SC GT]

IBgtguysaystheLegGTisperfectandyouareanassifyoumod it

[Nocturnal]

nothinisperfect"as-is"homie

[apexjapan]

If not 400whp, WHAT kind of power potential do you guys see coming from this car?

Well, in a realistic sense, 320-340whp is certainly possible. At that point you would be running into traction problems in a straight line, even with good rubber (real good rubber, not what people usually think of as good rubber. Rubber that lasts 8,000miles. Rubber that vaguely reminds you of your good old high school erasors, except a lot larger, and quite a bit more expensive...). You'd also be putting some big strain on the stock 5-speed manual (or automatic) and may have to seriously consider shoe-horning a 6-speed box from the Forester STi. I'd say the tuners will reach 260-270whp with stage 1, 1.5 kits, and will be up at the higher 320-340whp levels with stage 3 or 4, along with supporting equipment.

Now, I'd work up through the stages on this, if you are actually planning to do it. The power output is completely different from the Honda end of the world. At the 280whp point, even with 225 series RE-01's on, you'll be getting *4-wheel* torque steer when caning it.

Once near or past the 300whp point, it'll be enough to put some people off of ever driving the car.

And if you drive it in the American style, you will start breaking drivetrain components, such as clutches, transmission gears, and halfshafts. I don't get into the power until I'm past 3000rpm in first gear...

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com

[rao]

And if you drive it in the American style, you will start breaking drivetrain components, such as clutches, transmission gears, and halfshafts. I don't get into the power until I'm past 3000rpm in first gear...

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com


So you just wind it up to 6500 rpm and dump the clutch, sounds pretty American to me :lol: Why not just dip into the power only in 5th? ;)


400 whp would mean around 500 hp at the crank, which is just not possible on pump gas from 2.5 liters. Remember that this is not magic, just physics. If you think a grounding kit will make any difference, then you should just step away from the vehicle.........:)

[yacoub]

Well I am a guy who loves to modify cars :)

Cheq out my old V6 Accord (RIP):
http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/view_page.pl?page_id=284669&make_type_query=make%3 DHonda&model_brand_query=model%3DAccord&tree=Honda %20Accord



So you're into show cars more than performance.

Also, realistic power numbers from a 2.5GT I'd say would be 250whp, 275-300 if you really start doing heavy modifications.

[Nocturnal]

Thanks for all the replies guys :)

I'm starting to see that making power won't be as easy as I had thought in this car.

yacoub: No, i'm into both show and go. But my Accord was totalled before I could get REALLY serious w/the performance. I had already done $3500 worth of engine mods (including tuning), and I had a fully polished supercharger waiting to go in, but like I said, it got totalled before I could :(

[Th3Franz]

If you want that much power, get a Corvette or a GTO. How much power do you need for use on the street anyway? My Legacy GT is 250 HP and has the 5-speed manual. It's plenty quick for me, and when the need arises, maybe I'll get it up to 300 HP at the crank with exhaust and a reflash. I drove an automatic one before I decided on the 5MT, and I am very happy with the manual. The Legacy GT is not a numbers car, but it is plenty quick with agile handling.
Just wondering, have you ever driven a 400WHP vehicle?

[SUBE555]

Welcome to the forum Nocturnal. :)

I wouldn't say it's hard to make more power from this car, but that's my perspective on it, everybody's is different. Making 400hp at the wheels is another story. I think that's around 500-550hp at the crank (someone can quote me, I forgot aprox conversions.) I haven't really seen any tuners putting out those numbers on street machines on STi's, nor have I been seeing anyone recommending those levels either. It's just way over the top and will end up compromising reliability in the entire powertrain from the engine block to the axle shafts and everything in between. This car is just not made for that. It might be able to be done, but you'd end up sticking a LOT of money into it to become halfways reliable.

I will say like others have, what is that amount of power really necessary for besides bragging rights, at least on the street? Trying to make that kind of power, it will turn into something noisy, laggy, and likely prone to breaking parts often. An STi would probably be better fit to durability. Something with RWD like a Toyota Supra or an American V8 (or something similar) is made to make big numbers fairly reliably, but not this car, not reliably anyhow, it’s durable and reliable, but it just wasn’t designed for numbers like that, it’s a different kind of car. The GT was made to be relatively quiet, silky smooth, and with a good balance of power/handling/NVH. You're just going to have to take all of that away to get those ultra-high figures.

I would say an ECU Reflash and a Turbo-Back should be able to get you into the high-12's in the quarter mile without much for durability issues whatsoever. That should be around 250whp, or just above STi power figures of 300/300 (if tuning for the FXT and WRX STi are any indication.)

From everything I’ve seen/heard, it should be plenty capable in the right hands, it’s just not built for all-out straight line performance, it’s built for touring (and more if set up right.)

[apexjapan]

I think it's becoming obvious that people still lack a grounding on how much power 400whp is, and how absolutly terrifying it can be, especially in a car that can manage to get that power to the ground efficiently.

The reason I bring that up is because of, well, Honda. People have gotten used to hearing 200 - 240hp figures and driving cars with that power, and well, it's not exactly overwhelming.

That gets into power/torque relationships. There are many ways to have high peak hp figures, and the Honda method is of having middling torque that holds on till high in the rpm band. Technically, yes, they have 220-240hp, but in real world torque terms, they've got the torque of a 160-170hp engine. At the opposite end of the spectrum you've got the big pushrod V8's that have low-ish peak hp figures - and mountains of torque. If you could carry the torque on those motors to 6000-7000rpm, they wouldn't be 240hp motors, they'd be 450hp motors. Such as the Corvette.

What I'm trying to say is that the Subaru turbo is no Honda. It makes torque. Lots of it. In fact, my friends stage 1 STi makes more torque than a mildly tuned Skyline R34 GT-R. Really. The Subaru motors do manage to rev, too, but much of the value of them is in the torque curve.

And a 400whp 2.5-2.8 flat four turbo motor is going to be making enough torque to twist rather large and beefy components into pretzels. It's going to be putting you past the Corvette, quite a ways past it, and not in a narrow band of rpm 300 revs long. It'll be scary.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen

[IwannaSportSedan]

Great points and info from Paul.

I think 300-340 crankshaft horsepower, somewhere in the neighborhood of 250whp (to all four wheels :D ) would be enough to thoroughly enjoy the drive, and smoke some pretenders with too much money in their poseur cars. and no, I am not claiming that nocturnal is in that group.

a 330hp Legacy GT dressed in some snazzy STi duds, (or a real STi) with enough power and handling to embarass anything shy of an M3 or S4. That's what I am talking about.

Not that I need it, mind you, but boy, would I enjoy it!!!

[Deer Killer]

I'd be more than satisfied a kit like this:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=552016

~300-350hp crank, torque from in the 1000rpm range.

I think someone said 15psi boost at 1500rpm....

This type of kit will go with the design of this car, quiet, smooth, and lots of torque. Anyone who wants to play a numbers game should really get an STI. Stick a massive turbo on there, so boost kicks in at around 4500 rpm :) If you're that nuts you really don't need sound proofing.

I'd also like to be able to run 91, it's going to be very hard to tell if there is detonation because the engine is so quiet. Plus it's expensive for a daily driver. The torque down low will provide a huge increase in daily-driving power, even if it doesn't effect the hp numbers.

[agctr]

There are some big players in this market of doing up rides but driving them can be another thing. Getting power down to all 4 wheels can be tricky at the best of times but the implications go alot further especially when you are putting massive stresses on componets that werent built for that.
Yes, you can change and upgrade these parts but as stated earlier, there will be a massive expense including having yr ride off the road for weeks if not months on end.

In time this car will become more bullet proof but if ppl are already talking of 320 - 350whp gish it would be interesting to know what the final figures will be at the end of this engines run let alone what STi are going to do to counterpunch this.

[Xenonk]

a lot of people forget that an AWD vechicle can actually put 300 hp efficiently to the ground more so than a 300whp 2 wheel drive vehicle. Most of the time, 2 wheel drive cars will spin wheels (turning all that horsepower into nothing but tire smoke) If you ever felt all 4 wheels spinning, it's a pretty crazy feeling. I say the car is doable to make 280 whp safely. I say that's a lot on its own. The only thing I can think of that will restrict the car is the size of the stock intercooler.

Now for the hard part: finding the parts or a shop that would do some custom work for your GT. From what I have already been surfing through and such, Engine management will be something that is harder to find. A local speed shop can handle the work on putting a new FMIC on the GT, but it will be a pretty thin and short one. Turbo, exhuast piping will be easier, fuel systems will be easy to upgrade (uses Impreza STi parts to do so).. Suspension will be hard to find (only thing available is the Spec B shocks or the JDM STi springs). I think the car is doable, just have to see what the japanese websites have. The car can be a real beast.

Keefe

[agctr]

XenonK, welcome to the site, you have a few good points in yr post. Have a look throughout the site as there are some great threads that may give u further details and information.

[IwannaSportSedan]

a lot of people forget that an AWD vechicle can actually put 300 hp efficiently to the ground more so than a 300whp 2 wheel drive vehicle. Most of the time, 2 wheel drive cars will spin wheels (turning all that horsepower into nothing but tire smoke)

Now for the hard part: finding the parts or a shop that would do some custom work for your GT. From what I have already been surfing through and such, Engine management will be something that is harder to find. A local speed shop can handle the work on putting a new FMIC on the GT, but it will be a pretty thin and short one. Turbo, exhuast piping will be easier, fuel systems will be easy to upgrade (uses Impreza STi parts to do so).. Suspension will be hard to find (only thing available is the Spec B shocks or the JDM STi springs). I think the car is doable, just have to see what the japanese websites have. The car can be a real beast.

Keefe

I think you are right on most of your points. 4 tread patches have up to twice the square inches of traction surface, which probably multiplies traction by a good amount, not to mention decreasing un-powered rolling resistance to nearly zero.

As for modding sources for the Legacy, I have a feeling the houses that specialize in WRX and STi-s today will branch out to the legacy GT. The similarities from the WRX STi to the Legacy GT in the engine bay, I think we'll be seeing some exciting things. better and slightly larger turbos, twin-scrolls, fueling improvements, exhaust, intake, cams, valves, rotating assemblies, and hopefully the STi 6spd trans, maybe even from the japanese Forester STi. Helical LSDs front and rear might be cool, too, as long as the front is done especially well. I'd hate to screw up the front end steering and handling with the wrong front LSD.

If you are looking to build a monster Legacy in the next few weeks, you might be in for a lot of waiting for parts and development. I think that the aftermarket will embrace this car more than legacies of the past. It is much more agressive looking, driving (from what I've heard), and will appeal to more people who want WRX STi performance in a bigger vehicle. People who want all the guts, but a little more classy design, and more grown up look than the WRX.

Just wait. As someone once said, "It has only just begun."

[yacoub]

Now for the hard part: finding the parts or a shop that would do some custom work for your GT.

If we have the parts I wonder if TXS up in the airpark in GBurg will do the modding for us.

[Xenonk]

I could stop by at TXS since they are up the street from me.. I would be tempted to ask them to see what kind of UTEC they can do.

Keefe

[Nocturnal]

Hey fella's,
sorry I hadn't really followed up on this thread in a while.

The thing is, after driving the automatic, it kinda turned me away from the car, cz it felt kinda boring hehe. But a few days ago the dealer called me and told me he had a manual legacy gt in stock, and an STi for me to test drive. So I stopped by like 2 days ago, and well i fell in love w/the Legacy GT in manual hehe. It drove beautifully and the power was really nice.

...then I drove the STi, and was just in shock lol. I wish for STi power out of the Legacy. I know I had previously mentioned 400whp, and I admit I was being pretty unrealistic and unreasonable. So this time I'll be real honest. I want to MAX out at about 300whp at most if possible.

The reason I was aiming for 400 earlier, was because i've seen a lot of WRX's pushing out 400+ whp, and figured the Legacy could probably do the same (my mistake).

One thing i'm not too sure about, is the drivetrain. I know the STi comes with a really good drivetrain that can handle extra power. I'm not too sure how the Legacy's is, but will it be able to stand upto about 275-300whp?

Also, on a side note. What kind of aftermarket products are available for the car at this time?


Thanks fella's!

[CombatCQB]

Just to touch on the 500hp crank topic. I think this would be a professional engine rebuild. All the bearings will need to be beefed up. Forged rods will keep them from turning into pretzels. The engine balance will have to be really good. heck I think half or more of the engine will have to use stronger parts. That's before you tinker with drivetrain and minor bolt-on mods like intake, turbo and exhaust. Even if I like to work on cars, this won't be for me since I'd just be paying for someone to rebuild it anyway.

As for getting the GT to STi levels, that's been an on going discussion here. I feel the 6MT GT will be available in the US soon and it can be retrofitted (at a price) to the 5MT. The engine is close enough to the STi that most tuners out there will have it in their sights. So if you just wait a little, the stage kits will start flowing. Unless you want to do your own R&D and just keep buying parts to try out till you reach your goal.

[godwhomismike]

The reason I was aiming for 400 earlier, was because i've seen a lot of WRX's pushing out 400+ whp,

If you want lots and lots of power just get a 03/04 Mustang Cobra. There are a lot of how to's and articles on how to get 650-700rwhp for less than $6000 - that's including the parts and labor. That should definitely feed your high hp desires for quite some time and make a lot of folks jeolous.

- Mike

[irunfromcops]

400hp is possible but your going to need a 6MT or a dogbox to handle it

[apexjapan]

The reason I was aiming for 400 earlier, was because i've seen a lot of WRX's pushing out 400+ whp, and figured the Legacy could probably do the same (my mistake).

Ha. You've seen a lot of WRX owners that have claimed 400whp. They didn't actually have it. If they did, their transmissions would've grenaded.

Or they don't really have 400whp - what they have a is a vehicle that runs around 280-300whp 99% of the time, except for one single run where they used race gas and NOS. That one single run being on the dyno, of course. The Supra community is, I believe, the starting point for the "dyno queens". Cars that make 900hp - yet can't break into the 11's at the dragstrip.

One of the things I've noticed in my reporting is that people can't tell the difference between 270whp and, say, 340whp. You see, after a certain point it just gets damn fast, and other than at a drag strip, you cannot accurately peg how much power it is really making. I see that a lot in Japan where the major tuners claim X amount of hp, then watch a car with 60 less hp rip them a new one on the track.

I found that out when I drove the 320hp Tommy Kaira 2.2-litre Legacy b4 - stroked engine, exhaust system, ecu, intake, the works. I've driven some 2.0's with stage 1 kits that were faster.

300whp is an easy enough goal on the Legacy GT - and if you do it right, you'll be surprised when you turn out to be faster than most of the "400whp" WRX's.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen

[wunderkind]

Unfortunately Subaru's response to sticker power ain't as effective as that of Honda's. So a Type-R or in Acura's case Type-S windshield banner ain't gonna yield 50hp.
Those guys who claim xxxhp with their WRXs have either redone the internals heavily or just adding mods hp sequentially.
headers = 10hp
catback = 15hp
ecu reflash = 20hp
cams = 20hp
gut the cat = 15hp
BOV = 10hp
injectors = 10hp
etc....
and come up with some total figure - it's NOT ACCURATE!

[PPower]

I would love to have that twinscroll setup! Nocturnal, you mentioned that many WRXs have 400whp, but it is more common to be 400chp. I personally think that 400chp is more than anybody would ever ever need. My butt would be puckered up at 350.

[rao]

I would love to see a 2.0 turbo motor of any type making 400 crank hp on pump gas.

[WeThree]

Well I am a guy who loves to modify cars :)

Cheq out my old V6 Accord (RIP):
http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/view_page.pl?page_id=284669&make_type_query=make%3 DHonda&model_brand_query=model%3DAccord&tree=Honda %20Accord




FYI you're missing a wiper...

[SUBE555]

Rao, you can make 400chp on that 100-octane you can find at a few pumps. :P

Definitely a moot point for the power, I'm sure I'd be all puckered too Preston. Then I saw some vid clips of turbocharged Hayabusa's! :o I'm not sure puckered is the right word for that. It takes a special breed to drive those babies making a 2:1 power ratio of lower. Probably about as close a power to weight ratio as an F-16 fighter jet.

[rao]

Let me calrify. I'd like to see anybody make 400 hp on 93 octane with 2.0 liters.

[irunfromcops]

I would love to see a 2.0 turbo motor of any type making 400 crank hp on pump gas.

how about a 2.5 liter http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=601390

[rao]

I would love to see a 2.0 turbo motor of any type making 400 crank hp on pump gas.

how about a 2.5 liter http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=601390


Nope, 2.0 liter, that is the whole point :D

25% more displacement is a big difference.

[irunfromcops]

I would love to see a 2.0 turbo motor of any type making 400 crank hp on pump gas.

how about a 2.5 liter http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=601390


Nope, 2.0 liter, that is the whole point :D

25% more displacement is a big difference.

there are wrx's making 400 crank hp on pump gas, if i didn't have to go to work in a few minutes i'd dig some up.

and i won't even begin to start digging up 400hp 2.0 liter evo's, DSM's and nissans :wink:

[rao]

So the dog ate your homework :lol:

[jim malach]

I have driven an 400 rwhp twin turbo 300z that puts closer to 525 rwhp

[2005garnetGT]

Let me calrify. I'd like to see anybody make 400 hp on 93 octane with 2.0 liters.
lemme introduce you to my friends mr. 4g63 and his buddy mr. SR20DET

[franklin]

Well I am a guy who loves to modify cars :)

Cheq out my old V6 Accord (RIP):
http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/view_page.pl?page_id=284669&make_type_query=make%3 DHonda&model_brand_query=model%3DAccord&tree=Honda %20Accord


But yes, daily drivability would be my number one concern.


If not 400whp, WHAT kind of power potential do you guys see coming from this car?

Thanks for all the help guys :) Beautiful car but can you relly drive this on the street with that ground effects kit?

[John M]

According to the horsepower calculators (never went to an AWD dyno), my Stealth was making 330-340 whp. It was 100% daily drivable (after all, it was still mostly stock parts) and ran 12.50s even at 4050 lbs. Insane amounts of hp in an AWD car are still easy to drive. If you go for a giant turbo then you may get bummed about the lag but that's all due to turbo choice.

400 whp isn't impossible with a 2.5 liter; you'll see reports of 400 whp Green'ed STi's on NASOIC. It really won't cost all that much either if you DIY rather than handing to a shop and say "gimme max hp".

The record for a pump gas DSM is over 450 whp. The owner never even tried race gas; he wanted to build his car for street driving. If they can do it with 2 liters, we should be able to with 2.5. My goal isn't that high, but I would like to trap over 120 when I'm finished.

Speaking of "crap your pants" hp levels - there's a 3000GT in NYC that made 790 to the wheels a week or two ago. It will spin all 4 from a 100 roll in 3rd gear. It does "only" 650 whp on pump gas :D

[jim malach]

THat cool but I still have alot to do to the z like putting down 850rwhp,and that is a go sr20det we have two of them, Oh yea we have an audi 2.7 twin turbo and 95m3 turbo,and 2 other 300z twin turbo and a mustang turbo 04m3 droptop and had an galant an broke and a 3000 vr4 stuck in the mud and broke

[RobY]

Holy thread ressurection batman!

[jim malach]

My z was at the time stage 5 not even an boost controlwith 245/50 16 on back extreme racing was there and they said it had like 550hp crank or wheel but he took my ass on the start but by 3rd gear I had him he said I didn't. so we raced again and he missed 2nd but with 550hp would'nt you put in 2nd and still come by me, but I had alot of good street races in my day;)

[John M]

RobY -

I have a pic I usually use in these instances but I wasn't the first to respond :D

http://moojohn.com/stealth/oldpost.gif

[mclellan83]

So what is the highest effective HP someone is running? I did a search looking for breakdowns on HP and what they have done to achieve that and I couldn't find anything. I was wondering if some people could post what they have done to achieve their HP and how much it cost them. Thanks for your time.

[MarcusDubya77]

what parts would be needed say to swap our turbo to a twin scroll? what does this do to a STGII AP car??