COBB DP, STI up pipe, ECU flash dyno results

[redline76]

Gave the wagon to the boys at Harman yesterday to play with. I had them install an STI up pipe, Cobb catted downpipe, and do an ECUtek reflash. For reference, Harman uses a Dynojet.

Stock:

HP - 205
TQ - 215

Stage 2:
HP - 253
TQ- 272

I can scan the dyno sheet if anyone's really interested.

Subjectively these are my impressions:

The car makes excellent power. It's strongest in the midrange, so it really pulls after 3K. 3rd gear acceleration on the fwy is extremely fun. It's torquey around town; it feels as if the car dropped 400 pounds. Throttle response is a bit choppy; I'm going to speak with Dan as he mentioned that there were drive-by-wire settings that could be altered in the reflash. Power-wise, these mods will be enough for the majority of Legacy owners, I suspect. It really does accelerate ferociously like the STI I used to own.

The Cobb downpipe is not silent. You definitely hear the turbo spool and recirc as you get on and off the throttle. If the windows are up, it's not nearly as detectable. Windows down, you realize you're not so stealty anymore. Almost like a mini BOV effect, if that's what you're after. I've heard a bit of wastegate flutter but only when I'm really listening for it and if there's a surface to reflect sound, i.e. running along a row of parked cars at part throttle or a concrete divider while entering the fwy. I'm pretty picky about these sorts of things, so I'm personally not a fan of the "symphony of sounds" but it's liveable for now. I'll let you all know how annoyed I am next week :lol:

All said, it's tough to stay out of the throttle and the car is responsive :)

Hats off to Dan and the Harman crew; they did a nice job on the car and were extremely pleasant to deal with. I had a clanking issue with the front Whiteline swaybar and they quickly traced it down to a loose endlink bolt, no charge. I definitely recommend their services to all in the LA area. Very much a no bullshit approach which I appreciate.

I also threw on a set of 18" wheels (f***ing hypocrite), but I'll save that for the "wheels" discussion.

[PGT]

How much $$ for the UP and DP install (if I may ask)?

[scans007]

How much $$ for the UP and DP install (if I may ask)?

Oh just drive up here, (MA) tons of us would help ya......Party at firedawgs ;)

Ooh can't wait, I took off the Perrin DP last week, installing Lachute UP/DP next weekend an AP flash back to stage two.......I won' t lie.....I MISS IT :D

[redline76]

About $225. I could have done it elsewhere for $150 but Harman is 30 seconds from work and I figured I'd just have them do everything at once.

[Han'sGT]

how about taking it to the strip? i'm currious to see the times for the 1/4 mile.

[SC GT]

Nice. We've got to meet up one weekend to compare. I'm running a very similar set up (STi UP, Cobb DP. Only difference is my axelback) with the AP Stage 2. I'd like to feel the difference between a custom tune and an off-the-shelf map.

Did a comparison of your numbers to Landshark's (since he is at Stage 2 and was dyno'd at Harman Motive) and he reported 252 hp and 270 lb/ft, running an off-the-shelf AP Stage 2. The differences were that he also had a lightened pulley, Perrin TMIC, Cat Back exhaust, and was running the Perrin (catless) DP.

Curious, did you dyno with the 18s on, or were you on your stockers?

[AWDxBOOST]

How much $$ for the UP and DP install (if I may ask)?

drive down to richmond, ill put em in with you in a couple hours worth of work

[LandShark]

Not to start the Cobb versus ECUTek (or any custom) tune debate here, but just a very interesting FYI. Dan at HM did my parts install for Stage 2. On the very same dyno running Cobb AP Stg 2 map, 91 octance the results were:
HP - 252 / TQ - 270. Virtually identical results. I find that amazing.

And I absolutely 2nd your comments about how great it is to deal with Dan and his crew. His approach is down-to-earth, very reasonable, and everyone is friendly. That's where all my LGT work will get done.

[redline76]

how about taking it to the strip? i'm currious to see the times for the 1/4 mile.

Unfortunately I'm not really into drag racing so I don't think I'll be able to help you out on this one :)

[sandwood]

landshark - any other mods? Nice to think the AP off the shelf *can* be similar to an ecutek tune.

my question is how well the AP can adjust to little add on mods - like a perrin TMIC, for example.

[redline76]

[QUOTE=LandShark]Not to start the Cobb versus ECUTek (or any custom) tune debate here, but just a very interesting FYI. Dan at HM did my parts install for Stage 2. On the very same dyno running Cobb AP Stg 2 map, 91 octance the results were:
HP - 252 / TQ - 270. Virtually identical results. I find that amazing.

QUOTE]

Is this with all the other stuff that SCGT mentioned (TMIC, Pulley, etc.)?

Dave, I dyno'ed with the stock 17" wheels.

[LandShark]

Well, in fact, I've got the Perrin TMIC. Lots of suspension stuff but that don't really matter.

Engine mods: PDE Flex UP, Perrin catless DP, Borla exhaust, Perrin TMIC, Perrin turbo inlet hose, AVO panel filter, ltwt pulley, AVO BOV.

edit: I had my 18" x 7.5" Rota wheels on. don't know if that helps or hurts

again, I'm not saying "mine is better than yours" or any kind of macho debate. just simply pointing out that in this rare instance of having truly comparible results because both cars were tested on the same dyno at the same shop - the results were surprisingly the same.

[SnoDork]

Nice Results Redline76!! I've dealt with Dan and the crew at Harman Motive, they are a great bunch of guys and really easy to work with and bounce questions off of!

I'll be using their services again in the NEAR future!!

Carry on!!

[AWDxBOOST]

ill finally have 1/4 mile results friday....rained 2 weekends ago, closed last friday...but this friday...its on

[SC GT]

So, redline, show us the 18s. And prepare for the flame fest! :D

[redline76]

Did I forget to mention my custom FMIC, SSR competitions, and 11lb aluminum flywheel?

:)

<that was a joke for those not used to internet humor>

I too do not want to get into an AP vs. ECUtek debate but to be fair, our cars are not equipped the same. My car is stock, engine-wise with the exception of those three mods. I'm even using the Subaru air filter :)

I ran down to my car to check the numbers and revised them from the original post in case you were looking at the first numbers I put up. They are:

Stock:
HP: 205
TQ: 215

Stage 2
HP: 253
TQ: 272

Anyways, this isn't a battle, I could care less if my car made more or less power than the next guy. I think it's interesting for anyone who has made these types of mods to post up as a basis of comparision for variances in dynos, tuners, mods, and baselines.

[sandwood]

landshark - my question then is how much extra hp/tq you can squeeze out of your pullet and TMIC with a custom tune instead of stage 2? whether with streetuner or whatever.

extra 10 or 15 hp / lbs/ft? anyone care to estimate?


edit: I'm not so much interested in comparing cobb to ecutek either, just wondering to what degree going beyond UP and DP (exhaust) with the AP is a matter of declining returns.

sorry to hijack.:D

[redline76]

So, redline, show us the 18s. And prepare for the flame fest! :D

Oh yeah, I have it coming :)

They look pretty good and really suit the silver wagon, but I'm undecided if I want aftermarket wheels or not. The ride hasn't really suffered too much but now that that the car is huffing, whistling and making its presence known, I need to get more undercover :)

I forgot the camera @ home but I'll be sure to snap a pic or two tonight.

[SnoDork]

I feel a hijack!...

BTW: Redline76...yeah let's see the 18's...

[SC GT]

Agreed. My only intention in posting Landshark's #s was for comparison since you guys were both on the same dyno, both at Stage 2. This is about as pure a Cobb AP/EcuTek comparison as we've seen so far with the LGT.

What it tells me is that a Pro Tune would likely be a very worthwhile mod.

EDIT: I don't see this as a "Cobb AP v. EcuTek" comparison so much as an "Off-the-shelf v. Custom Tune" comparison.

[Justin]

What it tells me is that a Pro Tune would likely be a very worthwhile mod.


We hope so :D

Seriously, its another tool. Like if you had a couple hammers. They all get the job done. Its the proper combonation of performance parts that will start to shine through now. All you guys have to do it start putting together some cool machines for us all to ogle over. http://www.wrxforum.com/ubb/graemlins/rockon.gif

Anyway, not to hijack :redface: Congrats to Redline, sounds like a super fun setup! http://www.wrxforum.com/ubb/graemlins/thumbup.gif Look forward to seeing some pics now.

Justin
COBB Tuning

[redline76]

We hope so :D

Seriously, its another tool. Like if you had a couple hammers. They all get the job done. Its the proper combonation of performance parts that will start to shine through now. All you guys have to do it start putting together some cool machines for us all to ogle over. http://www.wrxforum.com/ubb/graemlins/rockon.gif

Anyway, not to hijack :redface: Congrats to Redline, sounds like a super fun setup! http://www.wrxforum.com/ubb/graemlins/thumbup.gif Look forward to seeing some pics now.

Justin
COBB Tuning

Thanks, you guys put together a nice high-quality piece. It could be quieter..... :)

Anytime you alter from stock, there are going to be consequences. Some are good (more power), some not so good (noise, emissions). I understand that any downpipe will create some degree of turbo noise, that's life.

[gmorris]

It's pretty easy to see how much power can be pulled out with just the addition of the Perrin TMIC....just check PDXtuning's posts. I realize the absolute numbers are not comparable but the increase from the IC and custom tuning is applicable.

[LandShark]

I also just want to say congrats to you, Redline76. I know exactly what you're talking about as far as stage 2 really "waking up" the Legacy's true performance capability.

I have spoken with Dan at HM about what might be expected from a StreetTuner reflash. He said it would likely be in the 10 hp range. Maybe a little more torque. Mostly, it was about developing a "safer" tune or one that really looks at the AFRs, timing issues, etc. and adjusting them to the best settings for my particular vehicle. That sounds great and all, but it's hard to sink nearly $500 large for that. The idea of getting an optional "racing gas map" based on super-high octane fuel is not so appealing because of the cost of that gas. I'd probably be too tempted all the time to pay too much for gas just to enjoy the added hp.

I am hoping to move up to either the 18G or 20G turbo soon. Then, the Cobb StreetTuner will get a chance to show what it's made of!

[LEGA-C-YA]

redline 76- your observations on driveability and various sounds (noises) is spot on. I have the Cobb downpipe, a gutted uppipe and an A/P @ stage 2. I am feeling and hearing the same things that you describe.

I am curious what you mean by "choppy" throttle response. For me the off boost-on boost is not as smooth as Stage 1 was. Above 3k rpm it is fine but below is not smooth. I don't know if part of this is soft engine mounts and a more abrupt change in available torque than before.

I agree with you about all the additional sounds that I can now hear - I don't care for them. I am really glad that I didn't get a down pipe with a thin wall section as I guess the noises would be even louder.

I haven't modified and replaced the heat shield yet but I guess that will not quiet things down. I would be interested in a heat/sound shield for the Cobb downpipe for the turbo and the full downward length of the pipe

[redline76]

I also just want to say congrats to you, Redline76. I know exactly what you're talking about as far as stage 2 really "waking up" the Legacy's true performance capability.

I have spoken with Dan at HM about what might be expected from a StreetTuner reflash. He said it would likely be in the 10 hp range. Maybe a little more torque. Mostly, it was about developing a "safer" tune or one that really looks at the AFRs, timing issues, etc. and adjusting them to the best settings for my particular vehicle. That sounds great and all, but it's hard to sink nearly $500 large for that. The idea of getting an optional "racing gas map" based on super-high octane fuel is not so appealing because of the cost of that gas. I'd probably be too tempted all the time to pay too much for gas just to enjoy the added hp.

I am hoping to move up to either the 18G or 20G turbo soon. Then, the Cobb StreetTuner will get a chance to show what it's made of!

Thanks, although it's hard to take any credit for anything except pissing away money :lol:

Dan and his crew obviously know their stuff; they're the ones who deserve the credit for pulling some good numbers out of the car.

I agree with you about the incremental benefit vs. excessive $. I would consider the 18G/injectors at some point, but for now I'm satisfied with the way the car is performing and I'm sure I'll be going through enough of the 91 octane as is.

I'll report back in a week or two about the effect of the mods on MPG. I get around 20-22 currently in a mix of 75% fwy, 25% city.

[LandShark]

I'll report back in a week or two about the effect of the mods on MPG. I get around 20-22 currently in a mix of 75% fwy, 25% city.

If your trend follows mine......it will fall to around 18/19 mpg avg. I don't think it's because it's less fuel efficient. It's just too damn tempting to press down the GO pedal all the time!

[LawGT]

Gave the wagon to the boys at Harman yesterday to play with. I had them install an STI up pipe, Cobb catted downpipe, and do an ECUtek reflash. For reference, Harman uses a Dynojet.

Stock:

HP - 205
TQ - 215

Stage 2:
HP - 253
TQ- 272

I can scan the dyno sheet if anyone's really interested.

Subjectively these are my impressions:

The car makes excellent power. It's strongest in the midrange, so it really pulls after 3K. 3rd gear acceleration on the fwy is extremely fun. It's torquey around town; it feels as if the car dropped 400 pounds. Throttle response is a bit choppy; I'm going to speak with Dan as he mentioned that there were drive-by-wire settings that could be altered in the reflash. Power-wise, these mods will be enough for the majority of Legacy owners, I suspect. It really does accelerate ferociously like the STI I used to own.

The Cobb downpipe is not silent. You definitely hear the turbo spool and recirc as you get on and off the throttle. If the windows are up, it's not nearly as detectable. Windows down, you realize you're not so stealty anymore. Almost like a mini BOV effect, if that's what you're after. I've heard a bit of wastegate flutter but only when I'm really listening for it and if there's a surface to reflect sound, i.e. running along a row of parked cars at part throttle or a concrete divider while entering the fwy. I'm pretty picky about these sorts of things, so I'm personally not a fan of the "symphony of sounds" but it's liveable for now. I'll let you all know how annoyed I am next week :lol:

All said, it's tough to stay out of the throttle and the car is responsive :)

Hats off to Dan and the Harman crew; they did a nice job on the car and were extremely pleasant to deal with. I had a clanking issue with the front Whiteline swaybar and they quickly traced it down to a loose endlink bolt, no charge. I definitely recommend their services to all in the LA area. Very much a no bullshit approach which I appreciate.

I also threw on a set of 18" wheels (f***ing hypocrite), but I'll save that for the "wheels" discussion.

I'lll take a scan of the Dyno sheet...both stock and modded. tx.

[redline76]

Here you go...

[Harman Motive]

for those of you who enjoy color!

[LawGT]

Thanks

[TSi+WRX]

Very cool stuff, redline76!

:)

A rather subjective question - how's your exhaust smell with the catted DP?

-A

[LEGA-C-YA]

No smell at all from mine

[redline76]

Very cool stuff, redline76!

:)

A rather subjective question - how's your exhaust smell with the catted DP?

-A

I catch a slight whiff of something every now and then but the pipe is new so I figure I'll give it a couple of weeks to heat cycle before I state outright that the car has a non-catalyzed smell. I think the designs that put the cat closer to the turbo are probably better in this regard.

[TSi+WRX]

LEGA-C-YA and redline76,

I -VERY- much appreciate your responses. I not only need to pass Ohio E-Check emissions, but more importantly, the wifey's all-important nose-test!

:)

-A

[jdanhires]

LEGA-C-YA and redline76,

I -VERY- much appreciate your responses. I not only need to pass Ohio E-Check emissions, but more importantly, the wifey's all-important nose-test!

:)

-A

Ohio eCheck is now OBDII based. If your car is not showing any codes, and the computer says the I/M readiness tests have been passed, you're good to go.

'sides, Ohio eCheck will be bye-bye next year.
John

[TSi+WRX]

^^^

John, LOL. :D That's what they *_always_* say about E-Check. ;)

As for OBD-II, I thought that they still put the sniffer up the tailpipe?

-A

[jdanhires]

^^^

John, LOL. :D That's what they *_always_* say about E-Check. ;)

As for OBD-II, I thought that they still put the sniffer up the tailpipe?

-A


Here's the link to the 'revised' echeck guidelines:
http://www.epa.state.oh.us/dapc/echeck/testing_info/obd_faq.html

Ohio has not renewed the contract with the company that performs the tests, and it expires in December.

John

[TSi+WRX]

Hey, my birthday is in December - that'll be a nice gift. ;)

As for the guidelines....if I'm reading that correctly, by lack of stating that an OBD-II car will be tailpipe "sniffed," it should mean that we won't get the sniffer, right?

That's very interesting indeed, as when I had my last E-Check (5/2005, on my Talon), the OBD-II cars -at least the ones that I saw in the other line- were still poked with something up their rear-ends... Definitely no treadmilling, though.

?

-A

[jdanhires]

Hey, my birthday is in December - that'll be a nice gift. ;)

As for the guidelines....if I'm reading that correctly, by lack of stating that an OBD-II car will be tailpipe "sniffed," it should mean that we won't get the sniffer, right?

That's very interesting indeed, as when I had my last E-Check (5/2005, on my Talon), the OBD-II cars -at least the ones that I saw in the other line- were still poked with something up their rear-ends... Definitely no treadmilling, though.

?

-A

No sniffer. Now, I'm in Cincinnati and since January 1, no OBDII cars have been sniffed. My Audi was scanned, as was my bosses Maxima and a friends Honda. Previous echecking of the Audi was sniffed, but not on the rollers.

However, that doesn't mean the high school dropouts that work for eCheck wouldn't sniff a car. Hell, when I had a MR2 they put the front wheels on the roller. My biggest grip with eCheck is it's lack of consistency, and the
fact that it's not state wide.

John

[TSi+WRX]

I think you made three separate points in there, John - and, honestly, all I can say is agreed, agreed, agreed.

Maybe I should take my LGT for a little tour around and see which of the stations here performs the OBD-II w/o sniffer.

Thanks again for the confirmation and the information. :)

-A

[eles1]

As for the guidelines....if I'm reading that correctly, by lack of stating that an OBD-II car will be tailpipe "sniffed," it should mean that we won't get the sniffer, right?

That's very interesting indeed, as when I had my last E-Check (5/2005, on my Talon), the OBD-II cars -at least the ones that I saw in the other line- were still poked with something up their rear-ends... Definitely no treadmilling, though.

?

-A

I've had two cars done since the new requirements went into effect (my Z28 and previous Ford Ranger). I can definitely say there is no longer a "sniffer" test for 1996 and newer cars. As for the e-check going away for good... I'll believe it when I see it. I had one car tested in Willoughby off Lost Nation, the other was in Chardon off Auburn Road.

Back on topic...

redline76,
It's nice to see the aftermarket parts/tuning living up to all of the hype with real, live dyno results!! Thanks for providing the graphs. They're giving me (and I'm sure others) a lot to think about!

[TSi+WRX]

Bruddah, I think I've gotta go where you go. :)

-A

[godwhomismike]

Any updates after 2 months with the mods?

[nekdut]

Hey redline76,

You wouldnt happen to be the silver LGT wagon that often parks in the lot near the data center at Toyota, are you? I too own a silver LGT wagon and have seen a car that looks just like mine over there quite often.