PDXTuning Legacy Tuning Wrapup

[PDXTuning]

As an update to a previous thread, I thought I would post up all of our recent Legacy tuning results, with some discussion about each result. In a previous post, I outlined the gains with the Stage 1 and Stage 1T, but have now filled in the gaps with some stage 1.5 and stage 2 results.

First and foremost, lets start with some calibration. A stock Legacy GT does between 190-192whp and 190-192 wtq on our Mustang Dyno. The whp is inline with some of the other Mustang dynos, but the wheel torque is a bit lower. As everyone says, the dyno is an instrument, so use it correctly.

As a basis of comparison, a stock Legacy on Dan's Dynojet (which is actually a low reading dynojet) does 203whp and 222 wheel torque. ( a difference of 6% hp and 16.2% wtq)

Furthering that, a stock Legacy on Godspeeds Dynapak (according to a post on LegacyGT) gets 201whp and 237 lb-ft. ( a difference of 5.2% hp and 24% wtq). My experience on our local Dynapak has been similar, especially on the torque. Our Stage 1 car did 251 lb-ft of torque on our Mustang, and did over 285 lb-ft on a Dynapak the same day. And no, the secret trunk monkey didn't install more power on the drive over. ;)

None the less, with a baseline established, let’s see where we can take it.
For each stage I will outline the differences and the results.

Stock:
Well, stock that is
191 whp and 190 lb-ft

Stage 0:
Just the addition of a PDXT Reflash
225 whp (+34) and 228 (+38) lb-ft

Stage 1:
A PDXT Reflash and a catless uppipe.
234 whp ( +43) and 251(+61) lb-ft

Stage 1T:
A PDXT Refalsh, catless uppipe, and Perrin TMIC
250 whp ( +59) and 255 (+65) lb-ft

Stage 1.5T: ( ;) My personal favorite)
A PDXT Reflash, catless uppipe, downpipe, Perrin TMIC
254 whp (+63) and 275 (+85) lb-ft

Stage 2:
A PDXT Reflash, catless uppipe, full turboback exhaust.
245 whp ( +54) and 275 (+85) lb-ft

Stage 2T:
A PDXT Reflash, catless uppipe, full turboback exhaust, and Perrin TMIC
254 whp (+63) and 281 ( +91) lb-ft

Now lets look at the graphs and discuss.

Baseline
http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/LegStage0.gif

Stage 0 is an easy boost in power. Stock everything but the reflash. The limiting factor in getting more midrange is the cat in the uppipe. It limits spool, and also carries over higher EGTs which makes the car more knock prone. Still a great gain over stock, and the car is a quiet as stock.

Baseline
http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/LegStage1.gif

Stage 1 adds the uppipe. This adds a lot of headroom with the midrange, but as expected the upper end is limited by both the turbo and the downpipe. Also the small stock TMIC limits the torque as heat builds up. The torque band here is much wider, and the car feels very strong. No real change in engine/exhaust noise.

Baseline
http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/LegStage1T.gif

Comparison
http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/LegStg1vs1T.gif

Stage 1T adds the Perrin TMIC. This change made more gains then I originally thought it would. In real street driving, the difference is even more noticeable. The car is less knock prone at higher boost and leaner AFRs with the addition of the TMIC. I personally would do this before proceeding to any other stages.


Baseline
http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/LegStage15T.gif

This is a new stage, which adds a downpipe to the above 1T setup. The idea was to maintain stock exhaust levels, but see how much gain we could get. The result: AWESOME. ;) In my mind, this is the best of the bunch. In fact, this is how I have left my Legacy GT Wagon. It is near stock quiet, but near Stage 2 STI torque. The car is an absolute sleeper in this configuration.

(post continued below)

[PDXTuning]

Baseline
http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/LegStage2.gif

Comparison
http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/LegStg1vs2.gif

Stage 2 is a full turbo back exhaust. In this case, with no TMIC upgrade. It compares well to the Stage 1, as it gets a good gain over the none exhaust setup. Note however that going to a full exhaust from just a downpipe gains very little. 6 lb-ft of torque, and no real gain in hp. In fact, the Stage 1.5T (which has the TMIC), gains more HP. The reason: The turbo is just at the end of it's map. There really isn't much more to gain, as the turbo is flowing such hot air. My opinion: Spend the $ on the TMIC before the full exhaust. Besides, the car is near stock quiet with just the downpipe .

Baseline
http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/LegStage2T.gif

Comparison
http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/LegStg15Tvs2T.gif

Now we can see the combo of all of the good things, as this is a Stage 2 with the addition of the TMIC. HP matches the Stage 1.5T, and Torque jumps up just a bit. As mentioned above, the turbo itself seems to be the limiting factor. With a larger turbo (18G,etc), the gain from the full exhaust will probably be much greater.

Jeff Sponaugle
PDXTuning.com

[redfly17]

i love you pdxtuning

[JessterCPA]

Awesome information. Thank you very much!

Jesse

[zmarko]

Excellent write up! Thanks!

[MaStaMooN]

We need to send you our ECU to get these reflashes right? Unless you live close by or whatever?

Im really liking the 1.5T map... unless I get to checkout some nice exhausts soon.

[gmorris]

Dibs on the first Ecutek user flash setup you get!


Actually, I'm serious.

[sandwood]

fantastic to get this all put together. very interesting to see how a DP and TMIC compare in terms of how the first concentrates on torque and the 2nd on horsepower.

I think you may have just convinced me to get a TMIC. DAMN YOU!

[PDXTuning]

gmorris: I'll call you as soon as we have one!

sandwood: thanks! Give us a call if you need one.

Cheers,

Jeff

[VXCL]

thanks so much for all that info. thats exactly where i would take my legacy mods up to. up.dp.tmic and possibly ecu reflash. those #'s are more then what i was expecting.

[PDXTuning]

We need to send you our ECU to get these reflashes right? Unless you live close by or whatever?

Im really liking the 1.5T map... unless I get to checkout some nice exhausts soon.

Yes, but we can get it turned around in 24 hours. We also have a few TMICs and can make a package deal of course. I drove the Legacy to work today, and I like it a lot.. nice smooth torque, and no loud noises to attract the friendly officers. ;)

Cheers!

Jeff

[rony]

fantastic to get this all put together. very interesting to see how a DP and TMIC compare in terms of how the first concentrates on torque and the 2nd on horsepower.

I think you may have just convinced me to get a TMIC. DAMN YOU!

/nod

.... Must not mod car yet... Must not mod car yet....

[JBLU24]

wow! incredible

[TSi+WRX]

PDXTuning,

First, I want to say "holy nice stuff!"

Second, I've been tracking your original thread on NAISOC since a fellow Scooby enthusiast first made me aware of your work there. This was even before I'd gotten my LGT.

Now, the questions:

Will you be able to re-flash to a stock map, should I need to return the ECU to stock at a later time (i.e. dealer service on car) - and then re-flash back to tuned map?

Also, if the above is possible, is there an upper limit as to the number of re-flashes that can be done?

Furthermore, I would assume that there will be a nominal fee charged for such services, if possible. Any estimate on this amount?

I would also assume that turn-around on such re-flashes would take appx. 24-hrs. as well?


----

Very nice package, BTW! I'm greatly looking forward to these answers, and perhaps being a not-so-far-off-in-the-future customer!

Thanks!

-A

[JohnSoPA]

PDXTuning -- how does your reflash affect the part-throttle stuttering?

[SC GT]

Very impressive results. Are these off-the-shelf maps or custom tunes? And do you know, or can you estimate, what the results would be if you used crappy California 91 octane gas?

[PDXTuning]

I have read a bit about that, but I have never experienced it. So either none of the cars we have tuned have had it, or our maps do not exhibit it.

Jarrad

[PDXTuning]

These are the results with the maps we developed for off the shelf use.

California gas really sucks. I am not sure how to quantify the amount of power that would be lost when running on California gas, as a guess I would say 5-10 whp depending on the stage. It is possible that it would be a bit more. We have not had the chance to run one of these cars on 91 octane yet. There are some typical steps that we take when sending a map to California, but the cars always act a little different with Cali gas in them compared to our 92 octane.

Jarrad


Very impressive results. Are these off-the-shelf maps or custom tunes? And do you know, or can you estimate, what the results would be if you used crappy California 91 octane gas?

[sutter2k]

Any ideas where the next(after 2T) sub $1000.00 power gain or any size would be?
Does perrin's InLet Hose do anything?

An exhaust doesn't seem to do much.

What are reasonable turbo upgrade options for someone that doesn't quite want 400+HP.
e.g. Your turbo "broke" what would you consider?

[merlin]

Will you be able to re-flash to a stock map, should I need to return the ECU to stock at a later time (i.e. dealer service on car) - and then re-flash back to tuned map?
-A

Isn't ECUTek working on a user reflash product called EZ-ECU?

[PDXTuning]

PDXTuning,
First, I want to say "holy nice stuff!"
Second, I've been tracking your original thread on NAISOC since a fellow Scooby enthusiast first made me aware of your work there. This was even before I'd gotten my LGT.
Now, the questions:

Will you be able to re-flash to a stock map, should I need to return the ECU to stock at a later time (i.e. dealer service on car) - and then re-flash back to tuned map?
Also, if the above is possible, is there an upper limit as to the number of re-flashes that can be done?
Furthermore, I would assume that there will be a nominal fee charged for such services, if possible. Any estimate on this amount?
I would also assume that turn-around on such re-flashes would take appx. 24-hrs. as well?
-A

As Merlin mentioned below, EcuTek is about to release a user flash product that would allow you to flash back to stock, to a new map, or to tune your own map. That product was originally slated for release in April but has been delayed a bit. Nothing critical, but EcuTek is very particular about the software, and has been cleaning things up, and adding some new bits to the flashing part. I beleive flashing has been reduced to less than 60 seconds now.

As for the number of flashes the ECU can take, it is not clearly know, although it appears to be in excess of 500, perhaps 1000. The new cars use a different kind of technology, and I would be suprised to see a failure in less then 10000.

We will have an update on the user flash very soon, and I'll be sure to post all the info I have here!

Jeff

[PDXTuning]

Any ideas where the next(after 2T) sub $1000.00 power gain or any size would be?
Does perrin's InLet Hose do anything?

An exhaust doesn't seem to do much.

What are reasonable turbo upgrade options for someone that doesn't quite want 400+HP.
e.g. Your turbo "broke" what would you consider?

The turbo, without question. Even pre 2T, the turbo would gain more per $.

We are looking at the 18G and 20G right now, and will have some more data after this weekend!

Jeff

[gmorris]

Have you found it necessary to adjust your maps at all for cars going to high altitude? Calgary Alberta is quite high....worst case it runs a little rich I guess

I also assume the your flashes take care of the catless DP related cel's?

[TSi+WRX]

PDXTuning,

Thank you very much (and to Merlin, too).

I think that after the product comes out, I, along with gmorris, will be the first to be knocking down your door. :)

'Till then, I'll start selling my knives (anyone here in to Striders, Blackwoods, and Microtechs?) so that the wife won't castrate me when I plunk down the change to get your complete 1.5T kit.

Thanks again!

-A

PS: Is that a catted DP on the 1.5T or a catless? I need to pass emissions!

[rodan]

I have been impressed by all of your posts, very informative. Thank you for that!

PS: Is that a catted DP on the 1.5T or a catless? I need to pass emissions!

+1 and: brand? divorced/bellmouth?

[PDXTuning]

This was done with a Perrin catless DP. As soon we have a catted option we will gladly test that.

Jarrad

[dsmith]

Jarrad,

I will be replacing my Perrin DP with a catted Cobb DP in the next week or so. I already have a reflash and dyno tune from you guys, so feel free to use my car as the test case. :)

Doug

[GTCanada]

I will be replacing my Perrin DP with a catted Cobb DP in the next week or so.

Doug

Why the change?

Tom

[dsmith]

Two reasons: the smell, and the black bumper. I miss being able to drive with my windows down/moonroof open, and my wife doesn't like it when I come home from work smelling like exhaust fumes. And it really is doing a number on my white bumper. ;-)

Doug

[SUBE555]

Wow, now that's impressive!

If I get the handling all sorted out, then I'll just have to throw some pling under the bonnet of the GT. Already have Perrin Turbo Inlet Pipe/Panel Filter in and catless up-pipe going in soon. So would that in addition to the TMIC and catless shorty DP leaving the 3rd cat in qualify for the Stage 2T or something between Stage 1T and 2T?

Very nice work regardless. Will be interesting to see how you approach say an 18G and 20G and what your results will be. :)

[Ridgeracer]

This was done with a Perrin catless DP. As soon we have a catted option we will gladly test that.

Jarrad

Could you guys do a map for Rally Performance's new shorty catless DP? I would like to use this option so I can retain the stock main cat.

[Ridgeracer]

Also any problems with boost creep with the mail order reflashes for cars with catless UP and/or DP.?

[AWD-Turbo]

Do you know what the air/fuel ratios are for these stages? Have you experienced any detonation?

[PDXTuning]

Absolutely! Jeff did not tell me he had those ready already.


Jarrad,

I will be replacing my Perrin DP with a catted Cobb DP in the next week or so. I already have a reflash and dyno tune from you guys, so feel free to use my car as the test case. :)

Doug



We will have to play with that setup a bit and build a map for it. You should expect power levels between the 1T and 2T levels, but I would need to make and test a map before I would mail order that.

Wow, now that's impressive!

If I get the handling all sorted out, then I'll just have to throw some pling under the bonnet of the GT. Already have Perrin Turbo Inlet Pipe/Panel Filter in and catless up-pipe going in soon. So would that in addition to the TMIC and catless shorty DP leaving the 3rd cat in qualify for the Stage 2T or something between Stage 1T and 2T?

Very nice work regardless. Will be interesting to see how you approach say an 18G and 20G and what your results will be. :)



I would like to do that, however it will depend on how much time I have to load up new configurations. If someone in the area has or is willing to get this configuration let us know and we will make them a deal on getting it tuned if we can make a base map from it.


Could you guys do a map for Rally Performance's new shorty catless DP? I would like to use this option so I can retain the stock main cat.



We have not seen any issues with boost creep with this turbo. I believe it is such a small turbo that the WG is big enough to allow for the catless exhaust. It is possible that we just have not seen a free enough flowing exhaust. I doubt that though since the full exhaust made little more power than the DP only.

Also any problems with boost creep with the mail order reflashes for cars with catless UP and/or DP.?




We are using the same AFRs for these stages as we do for the comperable STi maps. The one difference is the stage 0 map for the STi does not have the precat so we can run it leaner than we can the LGT. Stage 0 gets about 10.8:1 AFR target, stages 1-2T get the same 11.2:1. During testing we actually ran our car at 12.8:1 at full boost and there was only minor knock! That was something we did not expect, but it was nice to see that the tune was good enough that even at an AFR that was that far off our targets the motor was still relatively detonation free. Just to be clear, we never got audible detonation. We typically rely on the stock ECUs indication of knock detection followed up by physical monitoring of the engine to confirm that it is not detonating at all. Once we confirm that we back the tune off a little and stress the car as much as we can. Long pulls on the dyno with inadaquate air flow are great ways to confirm that the car will be fine on the street. Then we take the car on the street and drive it while data logging for a couple weeks to make sure that it is still happy. After that we drop back to less frequent data logging to make sure it is still operating as we intended. On the street we have not detected any detonation with this map at all. We have been running the car for about a week before the dyno tune last night with a simular map, and then all day today testing it when ever we drove it. We will continue to monitor it, but it already looks really good.

Do you know what the air/fuel ratios are for these stages? Have you experienced any detonation?


Jarrad

[team23jordan]

what are the prices???

[legacy_y_tu]

Awesome write up. I love a vendor who provides supporting data.


Jarrad,

Will your maps work okay with a different brand up-pipe or downpipe or are the maps sensitive to this? I'm considering a Bosal up-pipe and if I went to Stage 1.5 I'd lean towards a Cobb catted downpipe.

TIA,
Brian

:Edited to add catted description to Cobb DP

[litkaj]

what are the prices???

I just got this from their web site:

Legacy GT Power Packages

Stage 0 EcuTek Reflash $799.99 Perrin Panel Filter $39.99 Totals $839.98 Stage 0 price- $799

Stage 1 EcuTek Reflash $799.99 Perrin Uppipe $199.99 Totals $999.98 Stage 1 price- $899

Stage 1T EcuTek Reflash $799.99 Perrin Uppipe $199.99 Perrin TMIC $799.99 Totals $1,799.97 Stage 1T price- $1649

[TSi+WRX]

Definitely interested in the Cobb catted DP route as well - those numbers would be greatly appreciated of both the test car, her owner and PDXTuning.

I would have, in addition to the emmissions sniffer concerns, of course the extraordinarily sensitive sniffer of my lovely wifey to worry about as well. It's one of the reasons I had to rid myself of my beloved DSM.

PDXTuning, I tried to see from your website where you are located....but that was not provided in the "contact" or "about" pages (maybe I'm just missing it! :)) - how are your customer cars and/or test vehicles doing in terms of passing emissioins in your state? What are your state's requirements thereof?

Thanks agian!

-A

EDIT - also, of course in 1.5T pricing. ;)

[Superalty]

Would the addition of Perrin Pulley, Short Ram Intake, or Turbo Intake Hose have any negative effect on the Stage 1.5T? I would hope it would just smooth out power and perhaps boost a smidge sooner. Thanks.

[KGreb]

PDXTuning, I tried to see from your website where you are located....but that was not provided in the "contact" or "about" pages (maybe I'm just missing it! :))

PDX = airport code for Portland, Oregon

[TSi+WRX]

KGreb,

Duh!!!!!

:)

Never said I was smart!

:) Thanks much! :)

-A

[a.spider]

These questions are directed at Jeff Sponaugle:

I noticed that the top end RPMs of the performance plots are
inconsistent. Specifically:

1. Stock torque and horsepower curves only show output to
about 6,200 RPM, dropping to zero at the readline (6,500
RPM).

2. Stage 1 and 2 torque and horsepower curves show output
to about 6,700 RPM, which is obviously 200 RPM above
the readline.

3. Stages 1T, 1.5T and 2T performance curves stop at 6,000
RPM, a full 500 RPM below the redline.

Why are the top end RPMs all over the place? I would assume
that the reflash could have raised the RPM limiter for these, but
even if correct, why stop 500 RPM below redline, or 700+ RPM
below the RPM limiter?

One last question: How do the exhaust emissions look for these
stages? Or even more specifically, for the Stage 1.5T? Since you
have removed some of the catalytic converters, will it still pass
the emissions testing?

Thank you.

[eVoMotion]

Definitely a strong communication from PDX Tuning (Portland, OR). It is great to see a vendor (local) supporting the list and providing everyone free flowing information!

[PDXTuning]

Typically you can swap one brand for another. That stops being the case as the characteristics of the component become different. As an example, a catted DP acts different than a catless system so they have to have different maps. If you were running an Invidea DP and compared it to a TXS DP you will be able to run the same map, since both DPs run about the same. In the case of a catless up pipe I have never seen enough difference to need to change the map.

Since this is a Legacy and not an STi I suspect we will tune a catted system shortly. Infact I hope to get one on the dyno next week, that is not a promise, just a wish. Once we have a good catted exhaust map we should be able to release it for mail order purpose. However since high flow cats are not all created equal you should consult with us before assuming that our map will work with your system.

Jarrad


Awesome write up. I love a vendor who provides supporting data.


Jarrad,

Will your maps work okay with a different brand up-pipe or downpipe or are the maps sensitive to this? I'm considering a Bosal up-pipe and if I went to Stage 1.5 I'd lean towards a Cobb catted downpipe.

TIA,
Brian

:Edited to add catted description to Cobb DP

[highwaydrifter]

These questions are directed at Jeff Sponaugle:

I noticed that the top end RPMs of the performance plots are
inconsistent. Specifically:

1. Stock torque and horsepower curves only show output to
about 6,200 RPM, dropping to zero at the readline (6,500
RPM).

2. Stage 1 and 2 torque and horsepower curves show output
to about 6,700 RPM, which is obviously 200 RPM above
the readline.

3. Stages 1T, 1.5T and 2T performance curves stop at 6,000
RPM, a full 500 RPM below the redline.

Why are the top end RPMs all over the place? I would assume
that the reflash could have raised the RPM limiter for these, but
even if correct, why stop 500 RPM below redline, or 700+ RPM
below the RPM limiter?

One last question: How do the exhaust emissions look for these
stages? Or even more specifically, for the Stage 1.5T? Since you
have removed some of the catalytic converters, will it still pass
the emissions testing?

Thank you.


no cats = not legal for off road use only :)

[PDXTuning]

I will work on updating the web site this weekend, but here are the prices.

Stage 1.5T
EcuTek Reflash$799.99
Perrin Uppipe$199.99
Perrin Downpipe$349.99
Perrin TMIC$799.00
Totals$2,148.97
Stage 1.5T price- $1999

The rest of the prices can be found here:
http://www.pdxtuning.com/solutions.htm

what are the prices???

[dsmith]

Jarrad,

Are you sure about this? Just the other day, Tim assured me that my current map for my catless downpipe would still work fine after I install my catted DP. Perhaps I should see you guys shorty after the install so you can make sure things are in check. :)

Thanks,
Doug

As an example, a catted DP acts different than a catless system so they have to have different maps.

[PDXTuning]

It will depend on the intake. I have a Perrin intake sitting next to me that we need to install and test on the car to see how much variation there is. Some intakes, like the Perrin on a WRX, do not require retuning, others like require a new map.

Typically we do not see the need to retune after a turbo inlet hose, or a pulley.

Would the addition of Perrin Pulley, Short Ram Intake, or Turbo Intake Hose have any negative effect on the Stage 1.5T? I would hope it would just smooth out power and perhaps boost a smidge sooner. Thanks.

[eVoMotion]

Jarrad,

I have been wondering...are these prices installed or not? It looks like these are uninstalled.

Thank you for the clarification.

[PDXTuning]

We do raise the rev limit. I suspect Jeff just chopped off the data a bit to make it easier to see the part of the curve that people are most interested in.

Any time you modify, remove, or replace a working cat you make the car illegal for emmisions. So all of these are for off road use only. That being said, if you were to run a high flow cat in the car you would likely be able to pass a sniff test. It is the visual inspection portion that would likely be the gotcha. Obviously a catless system would not even pass a sniff test.

Since we set these up for off road use we do disable the codes in the ECU that report the error with the catalytic converts. We feel that a person operating this vehicle off road would not want the check engine light to come on if they did not have a cat in place. If it were on all the time for that the operator would have no way of knowing that another code was present. So anyone getting a one of our maps should not expect to see CELs like the P0420 catalytic converter inefficiency code.

Jarrad

These questions are directed at Jeff Sponaugle:

I noticed that the top end RPMs of the performance plots are
inconsistent. Specifically:

1. Stock torque and horsepower curves only show output to
about 6,200 RPM, dropping to zero at the readline (6,500
RPM).

2. Stage 1 and 2 torque and horsepower curves show output
to about 6,700 RPM, which is obviously 200 RPM above
the readline.

3. Stages 1T, 1.5T and 2T performance curves stop at 6,000
RPM, a full 500 RPM below the redline.

Why are the top end RPMs all over the place? I would assume
that the reflash could have raised the RPM limiter for these, but
even if correct, why stop 500 RPM below redline, or 700+ RPM
below the RPM limiter?

One last question: How do the exhaust emissions look for these
stages? Or even more specifically, for the Stage 1.5T? Since you
have removed some of the catalytic converters, will it still pass
the emissions testing?

Thank you.

[PDXTuning]

These questions are directed at Jeff Sponaugle:

I noticed that the top end RPMs of the performance plots are
inconsistent. Specifically:

1. Stock torque and horsepower curves only show output to
about 6,200 RPM, dropping to zero at the readline (6,500
RPM).

2. Stage 1 and 2 torque and horsepower curves show output
to about 6,700 RPM, which is obviously 200 RPM above
the readline.

3. Stages 1T, 1.5T and 2T performance curves stop at 6,000
RPM, a full 500 RPM below the redline.

Why are the top end RPMs all over the place? I would assume
that the reflash could have raised the RPM limiter for these, but
even if correct, why stop 500 RPM below redline, or 700+ RPM
below the RPM limiter?

One last question: How do the exhaust emissions look for these
stages? Or even more specifically, for the Stage 1.5T? Since you
have removed some of the catalytic converters, will it still pass
the emissions testing?

Thank you.

The only reason for the chop off is that the dyno auto record settings for the export tool was set a few mph too low. The pulls actually went to about 6700rpm, but of course torque and hp are falling by that point. When I exported the data, the exporter only exported to about 6200 rpm for the ones I did this week.. The ones from a few weeks ago I didn't make the setting as low so it exported a bit higher.

Unfortunatly, the small stock turbo is falling off so fast you hit peak power before crossing 6k!

Cheers,

jeff

[scatman]

Cool, a tuneing shop I can actually drive to (WA). Do you guys do installs/package deals? My apologies if thats been answered already.

[highwaydrifter]

i love my off road legacy station wagon :)

[PDXTuning]

Our package deals are listed on that link I sent, and in the quote on page 1. We can definately get the parts installed for you if you want to come down here to pick up the parts. We are based out of Matrix Integrated so technically they are the ones doing the installation, but it is one stop shopping all the same.

Let me know what all you are interested in and I will get you a quote for installation and for the parts with tuning.

Jarrad


Cool, a tuneing shop I can actually drive to (WA). Do you guys do installs/package deals? My apologies if thats been answered already.

[Ridgeracer]

Jarrad....Do you guys come out to the east coast and do local tuning like Vishnu sometimes?

[edmundu]

Jarrad....Do you guys come out to the east coast and do local tuning like Vishnu sometimes?

Funny you should bring that up Ridgeracer..... I was on the phone earlier today with Jarrad asking about that!

He did say that they would come out and do custom tunes, or off the shelf staged maps, so long as we had at least 5 guys minimum. We just basically need to cover their airfare, some food, and hotel.

I'm in for that if you are, then we only need 3 more? We just need to rent a dyno somewhere? Any ideas? I don't mind going into NY, or even CT.

[a.spider]

Jeff @ PDXTuning:

Thanks for the response. Since you didn't answer the question about emissions testing
I assume either you have done any emissions testings yet, or else ... OH LOOK!! Isn't
that Elvis over THERE!!! ...

By the way, THANKS to all of the PDXTuning people for the detailed information.

[rc0032]

PDXTuning - Looks like you will be in ChiTown next week. Will you be tuning then?

[Track Rebel]

TurboTrix in Edison, NJ is as good a spot as any to have a dyno-day. I would be interested in tuning as well if PDX wants to do UTEC tuning.

[eHoward]

Dumb question:

For $800, the cost of a new intercooler, why not just buy a proper sized turbo for the car?


The reason: The turbo is just at the end of it's map. There really isn't much more to gain, as the turbo is flowing such hot air. My opinion: Spend the $ on the TMIC before the full exhaust. B

[SUBE555]

With a new turbo, you will also be needing injectors, fuel pump, and intercooler as well as exhaust plumbing. :) That's much more than $800. And there are very few turbo options short of swapping the whole intake manifold/throttle body/turbo section. ;)

The larger TMIC will keep the air charge cooler, flow better with less pressure drop, and thus be more efficient getting about as much as can be had out of the stock turbo.

RalliTek I think has the Perrin TMIC for a bit less, would have to look again though.

[legacy_y_tu]

Typically you can swap one brand for another. That stops being the case as the characteristics of the component become different. As an example, a catted DP acts different than a catless system so they have to have different maps. If you were running an Invidea DP and compared it to a TXS DP you will be able to run the same map, since both DPs run about the same. In the case of a catless up pipe I have never seen enough difference to need to change the map.

Since this is a Legacy and not an STi I suspect we will tune a catted system shortly. Infact I hope to get one on the dyno next week, that is not a promise, just a wish. Once we have a good catted exhaust map we should be able to release it for mail order purpose. However since high flow cats are not all created equal you should consult with us before assuming that our map will work with your system.

Jarrad

Thanks for the info. BTW where is Ecutek's EZ-ecu or whatever they're calling it now. Any updates would be appreciated. I'm extremely interested in your stage 1 but am waiting for more details on this product. Give 'em a kick in the pants for me would ya?! ;)

Brian

[merlin]

Thanks for the info. BTW where is Ecutek's EZ-ecu or whatever they're calling it now. Any updates would be appreciated. I'm extremely interested in your stage 1 but am waiting for more details on this product. Give 'em a kick in the pants for me would ya?! ;)

Brian

+1 :)

[SUBE555]

Just looking over the packages again concerning comments from someone in another thread, I really think a popular package would slot right between these two with what might be considered something like a 1.25T for comparison sake as using:
-PDXTuning Reflash ($800)
-Top-Mount IC (Est. $725-800)
-Catless Up-Pipe (Est. $175-200 ave.)
-Catless Shorty DP (leaving 3rd cat in place) (Est. $200-250 ave.)

And I'm guessing you would get most of the performance of the Stage 1.5T as well considering the DP is a major bottleneck in the system though most behind it isn't until you go for a turbo swap. The more I look at it, it's a likely a very logical setup now knowing the major bottlenecks in the system. :) Best valued and reliable system too.


For comparison sake:
Stage 1T: A PDXT Refalsh, catless uppipe, and Perrin TMIC
250 whp ( +59) and 255 (+65) lb-ft

Stage 1.5T: A PDXT Reflash, catless uppipe, downpipe, Perrin TMIC
254 whp (+63) and 275 (+85) lb-ft

[mattg]

my L-GT should be showing up at Wentworth on the 11th. i plan on driving it for a couple weeks then stopping by to see you guys for stage 1. can't wait. :)

i'm a friend of Mike B, BTW.

[Trax]

Jarrad, thanks for all the great info and the plots! You guys really do try to please. I appreciate the fact that you emailed me (as requested) to let me know the 2T was tested. I hope to be ordering from you soon! :)

[eHoward]

Why do you think you would need all of that? You don't need to run an insanely large turbo nor do you need to run at max boost. He's selling a reflash. Why not sell a reflash to work with a GT28 or GT30 and stock injectors at a safe boost setting?

I would rather run less boost and make more power then throw an intercooler on to try to band-aid a turbo blowing hot air out of its efficiency range. but that's me.

I mean, if you're already selling customers an uppipe and a downpipe, why not just make an easy bolt-on complete kit that has all the right flanges to work with the right sized Garrett turbo.

With a new turbo, you will also be needing injectors, fuel pump, and intercooler as well as exhaust plumbing. :) That's much more than $800. And there are very few turbo options short of swapping the whole intake manifold/throttle body/turbo section. ;)

The larger TMIC will keep the air charge cooler, flow better with less pressure drop, and thus be more efficient getting about as much as can be had out of the stock turbo.

RalliTek I think has the Perrin TMIC for a bit less, would have to look again though.

Having written all that, thank you PDX for sharing the information and dyno graphs.

[gmorris]

Settle down there tiger...PDX is simply trying to provide a good alternative for people who do not currently want to upgrade turbo's etc. Rest assured they are currently working on some upgraded turbo's and I'm sure they will post the results when they are done. You have to realize the LGT is relatively new and not much development work has been done...give the market a chance to mature. I myself am quite exited about their intercooler tunes because it means I can upgrade the IC right now and get some advantage from it while I wait for the jury to decide the best turbo route.



Why do you think you would need all of that? You don't need to run an insanely large turbo nor do you need to run at max boost. He's selling a reflash. Why not sell a reflash to work with a GT28 or GT30 and stock injectors at a safe boost setting?

I would rather run less boost and make more power then throw an intercooler on to try to band-aid a turbo blowing hot air out of its efficiency range. but that's me.

I mean, if you're already selling customers an uppipe and a downpipe, why not just make an easy bolt-on complete kit that has all the right flanges to work with the right sized Garrett turbo.



Having written all that, thank you PDX for sharing the information and dyno graphs.

[SUBE555]

Why do you think you would need all of that? You don't need to run an insanely large turbo nor do you need to run at max boost. He's selling a reflash. Why not sell a reflash to work with a GT28 or GT30 and stock injectors at a safe boost setting?

I would rather run less boost and make more power then throw an intercooler on to try to band-aid a turbo blowing hot air out of its efficiency range. but that's me.

I mean, if you're already selling customers an uppipe and a downpipe, why not just make an easy bolt-on complete kit that has all the right flanges to work with the right sized Garrett turbo.



Having written all that, thank you PDX for sharing the information and dyno graphs.


Morris is on the mark here. Many don't want to go beyond the stock turbo, these solutions offer a decent level of reliability while sticking with fairly basic components that get the job done (particularly speaking of the Stage 1.5T in most particular.) The thing is though, at even these levels of power, you're getting fairly high on the injector duty cycle and any sort of failure or shortcoming in an injector at levels of above 85% or greater can produce disastrous results.

But back to the point of what these packages do and do well, for some it's a fairly solid increase in performance to someone's desired performance levels, while for others of us it's a stop-gap solution as we wait for a turbo of our desired specification to be released or made to our specs. There are only a couple turbos right now that don't require swapping out the entire intake track before the tumble generator valves. Some might call that rather major and many want to stick with the stock manifold and IC placement like myself. But for the time being, short of swapping turbos, the PDX Tuning solutions take care of the major bottlenecks, most notably Up-Pipe, Downpipe, and Intercooler being the big ones. Yes, the intercooler is that important to performance and efficiency and it clearly shows. Prior to swapping out fuel components and the turbo, there are some pretty monstrous numbers (33% more whp & 48% more torque peaks w/ huge numbers under the curve compared to stock) that can still be pulled off the turbo and still be operating within it's efficiency range, just look at the Stage 1.5T and Stage 2T. An estimated 63hp and 91lb-ft of torque at the wheels is rather significant! That's like a Cobb tune STi Stage 1 for example! Big difference from stock and plenty for most.

As for running stock injectors, fuel pump and intercooler with a larger turbo, well, it's definitely not something I'd do, but be my guest. My theory was always if you're going to do something, do it right, and well I think by now you can tell how I feel about that matter. Playing with fire. Whether you're going to run low boost or not, you're still pushing plenty of CFM with a larger turbo if I understand it right and that should theoretically require more fuel as well and you're pushing the limits of the stock IC, which I know can get really hot even in stock form. I just would spend the extra grand or little more on fuel pump, injectors, and better IC and play it safe when upgrading the turbo, but that's just me and definitely what I'll be doing.

Cheers,
Seth

[Superalty]

3 questions for Stage 1.5T:

1. What is the injector duty cycle at for full boost?

2. What is the efficiency range on the stock turbo?

3. Is this the safe limit, or is there a good bit of the turbo left?

I would rather have a larger safety zone than max out the stock components. Thanks.

[vup]

PDX, Jeff and Jarrad,

Do you guys have any 0-60 or 1/4 mile numbers on the stage 1.5T and/or 1T?

[Deer Killer]

I would rather run less boost and make more power then throw an intercooler on to try to band-aid a turbo blowing hot air out of its efficiency range. but that's me.That's so silly. How about you just get a turbo to run in it's most efficient range all the time and not even have an intercooler at all?

Yeah..

If you want a livable torque curve you _have_ to run the turbo out of it's most efficient ranges. Or you get a turbo made out of unobtanium.

[Deer Killer]

PDX, Jeff and Jarrad,

Do you guys have any 0-60 or 1/4 mile numbers on the stage 1.5T and/or 1T?+1 It would be nice to know launch rpm as well.

[eHoward]

HELLO. Did I write anything about not using the STOCK intercooler or upgrading it when/if the customer decides to make more then 300 horse? I just posted that IMO a turbo is a better use of $800 then an aftermarket intercooler. Especially when you factor in the cost to replace the aftermarket up-pipe and aftermarket down-pipe that won't bolt nicely when you go to the right turbo.

I like to buy or make parts once.

btw, run a GT30R at or under a bar and you won't fall under 72% efficiency.

That's so silly. How about you just get a turbo to run in it's most efficient range all the time and not even have an intercooler at all?

Yeah..

If you want a livable torque curve you _have_ to run the turbo out of it's most efficient ranges. Or you get a turbo made out of unobtanium.

[eHoward]

You win. I'm done. Cooling down hot air is a better idea then not making it hot to begin with and cooling that charge.


If you want a livable torque curve you _have_ to run the turbo out of it's most efficient ranges. Or you get a turbo made out of unobtanium.

[Unilat]

I'm confused - if you want to run Xpsi, won't you generate the same amount of heat regardless of what turbo you use?

[eHoward]

No. You are thinking about ideal compression, as if the compressor was 100% efficient. This is not possible. The highest you can get is about 80% today.

At 80F with a turbo out of its efficiency range like the stock turbo@55%, you're talking about a 212.782F raise in temp vs a 156.04F raise for something in its range like the garrett would be @75%. And that's not factoring in that the garrett would be having less ideal outlet temp because you could run less boost to make the same power.

T2 = T1(P2/P1)^.283

where T is temp R and P is pressure psia. That is ideal. What you were thinking.

To get actual, you divide what the rise in temp in degrees F by the compressor efficiency.

If someone were to have a compressor map for the subaru turbo, you could calculate the exact difference.

I'm confused - if you want to run Xpsi, won't you generate the same amount of heat regardless of what turbo you use?

[PDXTuning]

They are getting closer. Last I heard the cables that caused the problem in the beginning are back in production now. I have no idea what that means as far as a delivery date, but atleast it is progress.

Thanks for the info. BTW where is Ecutek's EZ-ecu or whatever they're calling it now. Any updates would be appreciated. I'm extremely interested in your stage 1 but am waiting for more details on this product. Give 'em a kick in the pants for me would ya?! ;)

Brian

[PDXTuning]

Rallitek may have them for a bit less, but you will get some of the best customer service possible if you buy it through us.


RalliTek I think has the Perrin TMIC for a bit less, would have to look again though.

As soon as we can get our hands on a configuration like this we will make a map for it. We try to pick configurations that make the most sense, but the lack of shorty DPs made that one we did not really consider. Thanks for the input.


Just looking over the packages again concerning comments from someone in another thread, I really think a popular package would slot right between these two with what might be considered something like a 1.25T for comparison sake as using:
-PDXTuning Reflash ($800)
-Top-Mount IC (Est. $725-800)
-Catless Up-Pipe (Est. $175-200 ave.)
-Catless Shorty DP (leaving 3rd cat in place) (Est. $200-250 ave.)

Mike warned us that you would be calling, I mean, said you would be calling ;)

Get that thing and get some miles on it, once you hit the 1K mark we will be happy to bring out the full potential of your car.

my L-GT should be showing up at Wentworth on the 11th. i plan on driving it for a couple weeks then stopping by to see you guys for stage 1. can't wait. :)

i'm a friend of Mike B, BTW.

Trax you are welcome. Let us know when you are ready and we will be happy to earn your business.
Jarrad, thanks for all the great info and the plots! You guys really do try to please. I appreciate the fact that you emailed me (as requested) to let me know the 2T was tested. I hope to be ordering from you soon! :)

Jarrad

[PDXTuning]

1. I do not have the injector duty cylce infront of me, but I believe it was in the upper 80% range for this setup. A stage 2 STi approaching 300whp comes right up to the 100% mark on our dyno just as a reference.

2. I do not have a compressor map to give you the actual efficency, but I can say that we pushed it up to the point that it stopped giving up power. When tuning you can get a feel for the system by monitoring the rate of return. As you approach the point of deminished returns you know it is time to back it off a bit and leave it there.

3. This is really a subjective point. We feel it is a safe limit right now, but there is not a lot of turbo left. At least there is not much more power left in the turbo. I am not sure how much PSI the turbo will push, but we did not feel the power gains from additional boost warranted running any more than this.

Jarrad

3 questions for Stage 1.5T:

1. What is the injector duty cycle at for full boost?

2. What is the efficiency range on the stock turbo?

3. Is this the safe limit, or is there a good bit of the turbo left?

I would rather have a larger safety zone than max out the stock components. Thanks.

[PDXTuning]

Hopefully we will be able to get the car to a track in the near future. It is really hard to get to all the stuff you want to do on top of the stuff you have to do. Right now I am taking about a trip a week between business and personal, mostly business. One thing we do think we need to provide as a company are some 1/4 mile times to back up our dyno plots. Give us a couple weeks and we should be able to deliver a whole slew of 1/4 mile times, including our GT35R WRX, our Green STi, and hopefully both our LGTs.

Jarrad
PDX, Jeff and Jarrad,

Do you guys have any 0-60 or 1/4 mile numbers on the stage 1.5T and/or 1T?

[PDXTuning]

Lets not be to harsh on eHoward, he does asks a valid question.

There are a couple reasons why we did not take this approach. First is getting a GT30R or GT28 to fit is not a simple bolt up matter. Since the LGT has a unique IC interface you can't just slap on a GT turbo. The next logical step would be to slap a IC like the stock STi IC on here and bolt that to the turbo. Unfortunately the STi IC will not bolt up to the intake manafold. So now you have modified/replaced the uppipe, IC, and the intake manafold just to not push the stock turbo that hard. Also swapping the intake means you have to fins a way to move all the wiring harnesses around, since the LGT has it's main electrical connectors at the center of the motor on the back side, while the STi has them on both sides of the motor.

Secondly, since the boost threshold on a tubo like the GT30 is much higher than that of the stock turbo you are actually loosing area under the curve. Instead what we choose to do was work with FP to develop a turbo that will bolt up to the stock up pipe, and the stock type IC. We will shortly be testing a turbo that will spool about like stock, and have plenty of cushion left at 300 whp. It is no secret that an 18G and a 20G should make nice upgrades. Additionally since Perrin has produced an upgraded IC you can run either of those turbos with the stock IC, or the Perrin up graded IC.

That being said we are not opposed to installing a GT30R on the car. I have one sitting in my office that is slated to be installed as soon as possible. There are a few complications with this setup. Since the GT30R has a turbo outlet that is in roughly the same position as it would be on an STi you would want to run a STi IC. However the throttle body is 6-8 inches out of position for the return charge tube to work. We are working around this, but that is just an example of why a standard GT30R will not just bolt right up.

Hopefully that helps you understand why we chose the packages we did for our initial stages. As more aftermarket products become available in the future I am sure we will release more packages, maybe even one that suits your needs a bit better.

Jarrad


Why do you think you would need all of that? You don't need to run an insanely large turbo nor do you need to run at max boost. He's selling a reflash. Why not sell a reflash to work with a GT28 or GT30 and stock injectors at a safe boost setting?

I would rather run less boost and make more power then throw an intercooler on to try to band-aid a turbo blowing hot air out of its efficiency range. but that's me.

I mean, if you're already selling customers an uppipe and a downpipe, why not just make an easy bolt-on complete kit that has all the right flanges to work with the right sized Garrett turbo.



Having written all that, thank you PDX for sharing the information and dyno graphs.

[SUBE555]

Well, Jarrad, you stated it better than I could in this thread and others. :)

This FP you talk about, is it bigger/smaller than a Green? Will it bolt right up to stock intake & exhaust flanges as well as the IC? Hmm, maybe I will have found my turbo given it's developed within the next 6 months. :) Are the FP turbos also ball-bearing? Just looking for the most efficient and potentially reliable solution as is available.

[mattg]

Mike warned us that you would be calling, I mean, said you would be calling ;)

Get that thing and get some miles on it, once you hit the 1K mark we will be happy to bring out the full potential of your car.

look what showed up early :)

http://photos.imageevent.com/mattg/legacygt/websize/0506080013.JPG

[PDXTuning]

We are going to test the first one as soon as I get back into town. At this time we do not believe we should try and make a Green bolt up to the stock IC, or the Perrin for that matter, so both of these will be smaller. Once we have tested them, and FP is ready to fulfill production quanities I will gladly release all the details. Right now I am not sure what Robert has done with these.

Jarrad

Well, Jarrad, you stated it better than I could in this thread and others. :)

This FP you talk about, is it bigger/smaller than a Green? Will it bolt right up to stock intake & exhaust flanges as well as the IC? Hmm, maybe I will have found my turbo given it's developed within the next 6 months. :) Are the FP turbos also ball-bearing? Just looking for the most efficient and potentially reliable solution as is available.




Get some miles on that thing! I will be back in town on Monday I expect to see that at the shop waiting for me when I get there! ;)

look what showed up early :)

Jarrad

[eVoMotion]

When you are looking at turbo design and development are you considering the FMICs that are coming from NFP and Perrin?

[Thrasher]

Please indulge a newb.... I notice nobody has mentioned installing headers-equal length or otherwise. Are they not that important? I thougt I would do the following:
better air filter
mad dad header & cat-less up pipe
shorty downpipe-pyzik (spelling) is coming out w/one ahh, shortly
perrin tmic
stock 3rd cat
stock resonator
obx straight-thru turbo mufflers
pdx tune/accessport/ecutek/you get the idea

thanks- this forum is helping me to transform my car into a fuctional, fast work of art.

[PDXTuning]

Perrin is using my car to develop his kit.



When you are looking at turbo design and development are you considering the FMICs that are coming from NFP and Perrin?

[PDXTuning]

Headers are one of the great debates for these motors. Some people have had great sucess with them, while other have only pushed off boost threshold.

They definately make the car louder. Equal length headers take away the raspyness of the flat four. You do not HAVE to replace them to make big power. We have made 450 WHP through the stock manifold. If you want them, get them. If you are on a budget I would push them down on the list. Some people will sware a blood oath that they are the best thing they have ever done to their car, while others will tell you that they swapped back to stock after. We are in the later group. I have seen cars that were strong with headers, and I have seen cars that sucked with headers. Unfortunately there seems to be no universal yes or no answer about them.

I can tell you that I am tuning a HIGH profile car today and tomorrow that has headers on it, both the turbo builder and I wish they were not on there.

Jarrad

Please indulge a newb.... I notice nobody has mentioned installing headers-equal length or otherwise. Are they not that important? I thougt I would do the following:
better air filter
mad dad header & cat-less up pipe
shorty downpipe-pyzik (spelling) is coming out w/one ahh, shortly
perrin tmic
stock 3rd cat
stock resonator
obx straight-thru turbo mufflers
pdx tune/accessport/ecutek/you get the idea

thanks- this forum is helping me to transform my car into a fuctional, fast work of art.

[Thrasher]

Prefer not spending money if it's not necessary, even if the funds are available. I'll save the header money for the turbo upgrade you have in the works. Thanks for the response.

[TSi+WRX]

PDXTuning,

Thank you very, very much for your detailed answers here.

The pricing on the 1.5T stage is simply awesome.

I can say with certainty that as soon as the EcuTek end-user flasher come to-market, you *_WILL_* be getting my business.

It's absolutely great to have a company taking so much of their time to simply answer questions - professionally at that - posed by Forum/d-board enthusiast members. :)

-A

[scoobydude]

Are these staged tunes also available for he OBXT?

[Superalty]

I don't even have a LGT, yet, and I am very excited about the 1.5T package. Just under 300whp for $2000, damn, I love it. Since I have the juice in my car now, I'll just spray the intercooler for that frrrrrosty feeling.

[rao]

Jeff,

Nice to meet you yesterday. It was interesting to see Pro Tuner and Ecutek side by side. (I was the person borrowing Jorge's laptop).

[jim1969]

How similar/different are the two programs?

[SUBE555]

That's right, you guys are in Chitown this week. Wish I could have made it down, too busy though.

As for headers, the only situations I'd consider them are:
-Equal-length headers on N/A engines
-Twin-Scroll Header for Twin-Scroll Turbo

Other than that, I really wouldn't use them. The stock piece may be a bit heavier, but castings can take heat much better than lighter tubing. Efficiency isn't necessarily better in many aftermarket headers too for most circumstances.

[legacy_y_tu]

PDXtuning,


Okay guys, my uppipe is on the way! Now where is that Ez-ecu??!! Heeellllooo? ;)


Brian

[Ridgeracer]

PDXtuning.....when will you guys come out to the east coast for some tuning...?

[PDXTuning]

Unfortunately we are in the same boat as you guys are on this release. If it were up to us to determine the date we would have released it already ;)

EcuTek is working on the product as aggressively as they are comfortable with. When you rush something to much you get bad product, and they are determined not to do that.


PDXtuning,


Okay guys, my uppipe is on the way! Now where is that Ez-ecu??!! Heeellllooo? ;)


Brian

As soon as some one puts together a group of people we will be happy to come out. I need a break for a couple weeks, but other than that we are good to go. I have been on 8 flight in the past 7 days!!!!

Jarrad

PDXtuning.....when will you guys come out to the east coast for some tuning...?

[TSi+WRX]

Good to hear that EcuTek is taking their time to develop a full product. :)

I'm still *_eagerly_* awaiting this one!

-A

[eVoMotion]

This might be hijacking the thread, but....

I have been wanting to drive a local LGT with a stage 1.5 or 2 or even an STI with similar just to get an idea what 250/250+/wheels would feel like. What level of $$ do I want to go for? I figure it is all mental dyno chart masturbation until feel it in the seat of the pants. Went to lunch with a friend with a 2001 C-5 Corvette 350/350/crank. I drove it around a bit and WOW! Fun! It was kind of like hitting the warp drive in comparison to stock. :eek: :D Must save $$ for appropriate mods.

[shiggins]

I swear, this thread should be a sticky. I have to search for it every time I want to look at the graphs and dream of Stage 1.5 or 2 someday.

[eVoMotion]

ditto! +1

[undecidedbuyer]

After seeing this i think i will be buying a 5spd instead of the 5eat. Is it too early to laugh at m3`s.

[eVoMotion]

PDXTuning - Any news on the new 18G & 20G turbo evaluation? Or testing the FMIC?

[PDXTuning]

We have been out of town a lot lately on a special project, <cough>Car and Driver Super 4 challenge</cough> So we have not had a chance to tune the 18G. I will see what I can do about getting that done over the holiday weekend.

Jarrad

[nendo]

yes, i would love some test results on the 18g and 20g,, very interested

[Unilat]

We have been out of town a lot lately on a special project, <cough>Car and Driver Super 4 challenge</cough>
Jarrad

Nice! Which issue will it be in? What make / model car did you use for your "project"?

[fzanetti]

Wow, great info..

Thanks man!!

Flavio Zanetti
Boston, MA

[Thrasher]

Are you guys gonna come out w/18g kit? Larger injectors/more fuel pressure needed or stock ok? (Don't care for operating stockers at 95%...) Tuning is a given.

[PDXTuning]

We are planning on selling a 18G kit. We will recommend a FP and injectors, although I suppose a mild tune on the 18G would only max out the injectors. Remember that the STi with the same injecotrs and fuel system is capable of just reaching 300whp on out dyno. We are still 20whp shy of that with the stock turbo'd LGT so there is some room left. At 300 whp you are at or exceeding 100% IDC for the STi.

This weekend I will be installing a FP into my LGT with hopes of it keeping up with the new blower ;) But more on that later.....

Jarrad

[eVoMotion]

Yahoooooo!!!!!

[Thrasher]

Hi Jarrad-thanks for the response. My thought would be to have Perrin bore out my injectors-I think they're 850cc bored.

Have not heard of a replacement performance fuel pump yet for the Leggy; wondering if stock pump would support the 850cc injectors. You have a lot of us salivating out here:p

[mattg]

Hey Jarrad, can you find out from Tim if you have the new ecutek software to reflash my car?

i was in a couple weeks ago (to get reflashed) and my car was so new that it had an ecu that the software didn't recognize. he took down the numbers off my ecu and said he would get back to me. i haven't heard anything yet and i'm just curious.

thanks :)

[legacy_y_tu]

This weekend I will be installing a FP into my LGT with hopes of it keeping up with the new blower ;) But more on that later.....

Jarrad

Jarred = Tease :p

[eVoMotion]

...turning blue holding breath...;)

[PDXTuning]

LOL, I am a tease!

Last night we started on the FP install but we did not finish it. I will get the car back tomorrow so we should actually get the FP installed THIS weekend.

As a side note we hired another person to work the phone and free me up to accomplish more of the projects we have stacked up :) Look for better progress from us on our special projects and check out our up coming annoucement about our store :)

Jarrad

[redfly17]

will you be selling the modified FP's as part of your kits?

[PDXTuning]

We are planning on doing a how to for this, and if need be we will make a special part to do the install.

[edmundu]

We are planning on doing a how to for this, and if need be we will make a special part to do the install.


Nice!!! That's why I like you guys, always looking out for the rest of us!

Thanks PDXTuning, you guys rock!

[NSFW]

Reviving one of the best threads ever.

Just because.

[newbwrx]

Great write up! I will be contacting you soon for information on the Ecutek reflash.

[sexylegacy]

My Ecutek reflash was amazing on my sedan. Just make sure you get the whole fan relay recall taken care of before getting a flash, or SOA will replace a flashed computer with a stock one and you will be hosed.

[TSi+WRX]

PDXT's ECUTeK work is second to none.

I'm super happy with my tune - which was last November. Jarrad and Tim B. both provided me with exceptional service and expertice, and I highly recommend their entire crew.

If you're looking to get an ECUTeK tune, opt for the EasyECU package, which will allow you, as the end-user, to reflash your vehicle using a laptop + ECUTeK dongle (with a tuner-designated map, of course) interface. It'll also get you the excellent DeltaDash datalogger.

[PDXTuning]

Thanks for the feedback guys!

Even better news for some is the pending release of 07 LGT reflashes!!!!!!

Jarrad

[sirsimon]

^ Woohoo! <Crosses fingers> :)

[TSi+WRX]

Thanks for the feedback guys!


^ Heck, no thanks needed - y'all did a great job!

Y'all know that I'm now a devoted PDXT fan. :)

[AKLGT]

yes, Jarrad, you've done great work and i'm quite happy with the results. :) just gotta work on the driver mod next. :lol:

[vitarelli]

How is the new ECUTECH going to work with the SI drive?
I can't wait.

[PDXTuning]

You will have to wait for EcuTek to release the details, or release the new software. All we know at this time is that they are nearing completion of the prototype work.

Jarrad

[vitarelli]

Jarrad,
When the software comes out for the 07 are you guys planning on doing the same testing with each of the stages for us with newer legacy's? I would love to see some dyno graphs of each of the stages.

[ProjectS15]

Jarrad did a fantastic job on my car even with the restricted air flow at the shop we were doing the tuning at. I am very pleased with everything and im starting to crave more power ;)

[PDXTuning]

Absolutely! We already have a couple people interested in getting their cars tuned. Anyone who is local and wants a custom tune should let us know. We may try to put together a day entirely filled with cars needing this software.

Jarrad,
When the software comes out for the 07 are you guys planning on doing the same testing with each of the stages for us with newer legacy's? I would love to see some dyno graphs of each of the stages.

[sirsimon]

You already have my info, but I'll say it again...count me in! :)

David

[goneskiian]

Hmmm, can't believe I've never seen this before! :lol: :spin:

Question, and I appologize if this was answered somewhere else a long time ago, what are the differences between the EcuTek product and COBB's AP? Why did you decide to use one over the other?

Honestly I'd never considered the EcuTek before now so I'll be doing some of my own research but would appreciate a reply (or link).

Cheers!
-Ian

[AKLGT]

most of the 07 guys have to go ecutek as the AP is not available yet.

they both have good things about them. ecutek will allow more street tuning and real time data vs ap. i love my ap though and would not give it up. still easily tunable if you know what you're doing.

PDX does an awesome job with both.

[TSi+WRX]

PDX does an awesome job with both.

+1. Either way you go - and they do have both available, you really can't go wrong with PDXTuning. :wub:

Like our good sister trd mentioned above, the '07 owners are rather limited in terms of the engine-management decision, when choosing between Cobb and ECUTeK, simply because while ECUTeK's option is now nearing retail availability, Cobb has yet to issue any official statements in this regard.

I'll present my story, and see if it can't help you out, goneskiian. :)

When I decided to have my vehicle tuned, the only available option for me was ECUTeK. Yes, I could have gone with the Cobb AccessPORT, but I didn't want to run either an off-the-shelf or even semi-custom map, nor wanted to do the e-tune process. As such, with my desire for a live tune and my limited tuner options at the time, I had to go with ECUTeK.

^ So, that's the easy way out of all of this. Just choose the tuning device/tool that your tuner is most comfortable with.

Fortunately - or unfortunately, depending on how you'd like to view this - PDXTuning is very proficient with either of these tuning tools (and others, too). :lol:

Because of that, I think that you should truly make your purchase decision based on some other factors.

Overall, the AccessPORT is a more end-user friendly device. It allows the overlay of "RealTime Maps" to compensate for varying driving needs, and if StreetTuner is a part of your package - and you know what you're doing - you can rather easily "fine tune" your vehicle to your tastes.

With the V2 AccessPORT, aside from the various "disco" features of that unit (essentially eliminating your need for an AutoMeter D-PIC or G-Tech type device, as well as eliminating the need for an auxiliary monitor, such as a GReddy Informeter), you will also gain the ability to datalog, as well as, even more importantly, download your factory ECU ROM image and store that for backup.

The ECUTeK, meanwhile, will also allow you to datalog - the EasyECU package, which I highly recommend for anyone choosing the ECUTeK route, will allow you to datalog your vehicle using one of the best datalogging software out there, DeltaDash.

Another advantage of having EasyECU packaged with your ECUTeK reflash/tune is that with the included software and license "dongle," you'll be able to reflash your vehicle, much as you would be able to do with the AccessPORT. The only thing you will not be able to do would be to "street tune" your vehicle, as access to the vital tables in ECUTeK is restricted to licensed tuners only. So, in these cases, you'll be reflashing your vehicle using maps that you'd requested from your tuner. When I had my ECUTeK tune done with PDXTuning, I requested a live tune with our local 93 octane gas, but also requested an "approximated" low-octane-grade map, to allow me to go cross-country without any worries. Don't quote me on this, but I believe that the "de-tune" maps from PDXTuning are usually free-of-charge if you just want an "approximated" map, without the trouble of hopping back on the dyno or doing extra street pulls/datalogging.

Another down-side of the ECUTeK is that on-the-fly map changes are not (yet) possible. However, considering that its interface is via the power of your laptop, reflashes are lightening-fast, and if you, say, for some reason needed to flash a low-octane-grade fuel map to, for example, get you cross-country, it's as easy as plugging-in your laptop to the OBD-II -to- USB license dongle, and hitting a few keys. By the time you've topped-off your fuel tank, you'd be done reflashing.

My original ECUTeK tune actually wasn't with PDXTuning (my original tuner was not forthcoming when I started seeing some troubles with my tune, so I chose PDXTuning to re-tune - and believe me, I would recommend just starting with an upstanding outfit like PDXTuning outright! :)). As such, when I decided to obtain a re-tune, I actually had the opportunity to either stay with ECUTeK as my engine-management, or switch to the AccessPORT. I decided to stick with ECUTeK because I preferred the laptop-based interface, and also because I know that had I chosen the AccessPORT, StreetTuner would be way, way too hard to resist; and given my lack of in-depth vehicle tuning knowledge, I was apt to screw up something, some time down the line. :p:redface:

There's pros and cons to both of these popular systems. Aside from tuner preference/knowledge, which I would use as my first-line decision factor, I would then say that the purchase decision is based on end-user preference.

[PDXTuning]

Wow, nice responses! It is rare to see such unbiased information from anyone!


Ok, I agree with everything posted above, and will go ahead and add a bit more to it. Ultimately either tool is reflashing the stock ECU. So the limitations and capabilities are to an extent determined by the ECU. This means that in theory the quality of the tune you get really should not matter on which tool you choose. This leaves you free to choose the tool based on your own personal preference. I can't even imagine how many times I have told people this, but honestly I do not care which EM you go with. I only have to deal with the car for a day, while you have to deal with it every day. The minor differences between the reflashes from my point of view really are not significant. At any point in time both reflashes have essentially the same tables available to tune. If I had to choose I would say that typically EcuTek finds a few more useful tables before Cobb does, but then Cobb follows along shortly there after. The same is generally true with releasing new ECU ROMs. A prime example of that is the 07 CAN BUS ECUs that look to be covered by EcuTek first.

So, if the quality of the tune is not going to matter based on which tool you choose how do you make the decision? In most cases people make the decision based on a local shop. We were one of the first shops to actually carry both AP and EcuTek. Since we carried both there was little reason for us to "push" one form over the other. When someone asks which they should choose I flip it around and ask them questions. If you want to be able to remove it in the future Cobb has the advantage. If you want to save a little money EcuTek has the advantage. If you want to data log right now EcuTek has the advantage. If you do not have a laptop Cobb has the advantage. Your local shop may only carry one, which means that one may have the advantage. If you have a new model and can't stand waiting another minute EcuTek may have the advantage. If you want to be able to tune your own car Street Tuner would be needed so Cobb has the advantage.

Ultimately you need to ask yourself questions like that and then weigh out the answer. The end user is really the only one who should make the decision, or at least provide the answers to the questions that determine which to run.

Now, just becuase we are talking about reflashes does not mean that we do not also include the UTEC or a stand alone in the discussion. Most street cars will not benifit from a stand alone, but the UTEC is a valid consideration also, particularly for someone who wants to tune themselves, or if launch control and flat footed shifting are desired. Additionally having 5 maps at the touch of your finger tip is pretty cool too.

Jarrad

[jim1969]

EcuTek= no resale for 05+ cars due to VIN encoding on ECU. No hand held programmer. Must own or buy a laptop and EZ Ecu software to switch maps. License is left on ECU.
Cobb= resale. Hand held programmer. Free maps. Will have speed density by years end.

[TSi+WRX]

So, if the quality of the tune is not going to matter based on which tool you choose how do you make the decision? In most cases people make the decision based on a local shop.

^ Exactly - that was the problem I ran in to with my initial tune. Since I wanted to have a "local" tuner, I had to default with whatever they had at-hand at the time, and at that particular time-point, with that particular tuner, they only supported ECUTeK.


We were one of the first shops to actually carry both AP and EcuTek. Since we carried both there was little reason for us to "push" one form over the other. When someone asks which they should choose I flip it around and ask them questions.

Ultimately you need to ask yourself questions like that and then weigh out the answer. The end user is really the only one who should make the decision, or at least provide the answers to the questions that determine which to run.

^ A big BRAVO! :)

That's exactly the response I got when I talked to PDXTuning a few months ago, when I sought my tune from them.

Although I did initially approach them directly inquiring about the ECUTeK EasyECU, they presented me with both the choice to save a few bucks and go with the V1 AccessPORT (since, back in November, the timing was right), or wait-out a few days/weeks for the V2 AccessPORT.

They didn't push, they didn't shove, they didn't do any marketing - they just asked the question, and left things up to me.

PDXTuning truly has been one of my most favorite "customer service" experiences. :wub:

[AKLGT]

well, i bought my V1 AP from another vendor. never got any grief from PDX when i started the process of needing help due to some bad maps (from previous vendor). They were great to work with and were highly recommended by 2 of my good friends here. Not only that, I know they may get busy at times, but with a quick call or short email, i usually got a status or update on where things progressed. If it wasn't an emergency, I didn't make it into one because I know they deal with so many customers on a daily basis. Though I have not purchased too many parts or hardware from PDX, again, they never gave me grief about it either and were always willing to either work with me or give me more options of what i can do next.

I went with the AP because of that easy end user ability. I wanted a virtually plug n play system that could be tunable without shipping off the unit like my previous Unichip system (for my previous car). I actually didn't know anything about the Ecutek, but from my general readings, figured it wouldn't be for me at that time. To do it over again, I'm not sure if i'd still go with the AP or the Ecutek because the Ecutek does offer a little easier datalogging and more user input.

[LittleBlueGT]

Group hug with PDX:wub:!!!

I like em too.

[XLeezardx]

Whats the advatange between stage 1.5t vs stage 2?

[PDXTuning]

The TMIC allows you to generate a little more top end power. I guess that is one of the only plots we did not post up originally. There is not a huge difference between the two, but you can see from the data that the stock TMIC is a bit of a flow restriction and also is not totally able to keep up with the thermal requirements for this level of air flow.

Jarrad

[el scorcho]

Sorry if it's already been mentioned...it's kind of hard to go through all of the pages in this thread.

Can we see the improvements (maybe some charts) of the PDX maps over the COBB ots? Cobb Stage 1 (reflash) and Cobb Stage 2 (up/dp + reflash).

[2005garnetGT]

so, uhhh, those 07 flashes.


still not out eh?

[PDXTuning]

I don't have that information handy. Since it takes so long to reload the base maps most customers have passed on us actually performing that test. Since the data in this thread was primarily generated with EcuTek reflashes there was no comparison to make.

I will try and do that with some cars in the future so we can show the difference.

Sorry if it's already been mentioned...it's kind of hard to go through all of the pages in this thread.

Can we see the improvements (maybe some charts) of the PDX maps over the COBB ots? Cobb Stage 1 (reflash) and Cobb Stage 2 (up/dp + reflash).

[PDXTuning]

I have blacked out three times now, but I am still holding my breath!


so, uhhh, those 07 flashes.


still not out eh?

[el scorcho]

I have blacked out three times now, but I am still holding my breath!

I'm sure someone will give you mouth-to-mouth for one of your sexy tunes. :lol:

[XLeezardx]

I'm sure someone will give you mouth-to-mouth for one of your sexy tunes. :lol:

Speakin from experience?

[el scorcho]

Speakin from experience?

I'm still debating! Hence all these questions...

[Waxiboy]

What is your expert opinion on why there were no power gains between Stage 1.5T and 2T? I would have expected at least 5-10 more HP.

[XLeezardx]

It looks like stage 2T doesnt have a DP. So is the UP more of a restriction than a DP?

[Waxiboy]

^ 2T is a full turboback (DP+catback) while 1.5T is just a DP on stock catback.

Consensus is that the split at the Y and/or mufflers are the main restrictions.

[PDXTuning]

The turbo is just out of breath, opening up the back half of the exhaust just does not allow it to make more power with the stock turbo.

[LittleBlueGT]

The turbo is just out of breath, opening up the back half of the exhaust just does not allow it to make more power with the stock turbo.


Asthma FTL.


FWIW opening up the exhaust should provide a few horeses, just not too many.

[ArcTec34]

sigh, i need money

[NewScooby]

PDX, I see you offer Torco and Race gas maps on your website. Do you have dyno plots for either with a Stage II setup that you can post up?

How much Torco per tank?

I will be running several track days this summer and this sounds like a good, relatively cheap way to add some more track day power.

[Diggs753]

All signs point that my son with get an "imaginary" Christmas this year.
Great news that Ecu Tek gives us more options than just the Delta or never seen Cobb AP.Regardless of the means of reflash delivery PDX seems like the best choice for maps.Great word of mouth and customer service.
Can't wait to do some spending.

[jim1969]

EcuTek locks your ECU. They effectively own it. It cannot be read by the dealer. Keep that in mind.

[Deer Killer]

EcuTek locks your ECU. They effectively own it. It cannot be read by the dealer. Keep that in mind.I'm not sure how much credence to give this. Sure they change somethings and break a few existing programs, but they're just hacking the ECU like everyone else, the ECU operating system still has to *work*, which means the defs probably just need to be tweaked.

Sounds like stupid to me.

[TSi+WRX]

That was the way ECUTeK "locked" things, the last we knew....

The dealership can still "read" the OBD-II data (although how "deeply," I honestly don't know), but a reflash, I'm led to believe, cannot occur. I've tried using the Open-Source programs to read my ECUTeK'ed ECU, both as of the reflash I had on this car, originally, since ~09/05 as well as again since my re-tune last year, and the OS stuff, via the OpenPort 1.2, refuses to read the ROM.

Datalogging can, of course, still be done with the OpenPort cable - but this is typically redundant as most people who opt for ECUTeK now would likely go with the EasyECU setup, and have their own dongle.

There has to be a way around the ECUTeK, like you said, but I don't know - to the extent of my shallow knowledge-pool - that anyone's taken the time to crack it, yet.

[jim1969]

I'm not sure how much credence to give this. Sure they change somethings and break a few existing programs, but they're just hacking the ECU like everyone else, the ECU operating system still has to *work*, which means the defs probably just need to be tweaked.

Sounds like stupid to me.

No so stupid. Have a nice read.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1027462

[Deer Killer]

No so stupid. Have a nice read.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1027462
Read it a long time ago. These things are not insurmountable, just annoying.

[TSi+WRX]

These things are not insurmountable, just annoying.

^ Be that as it may, *currently*, we have no known ready-solution for this "lock" that ECUTeK puts on our ECUs, which is the point, I believe, that brother jim1969 was trying to make.

Certainly, we'd all appreciate it if someone in the OS community gave us a work-around to this annoyance. :wub:

[jim1969]

Exactly. I am very happy with my EcuTeK tune and tuner. However, at this point in time, I would only recommend AP or OpenSource for anyone. AP at least has resale value and multiple maps. OpenSource can do whatever EcuTeK can do with NO license fees. I have ZERO resale value of my EcuTeK license. This is unlike the pre 05 cars because our cars have immoblizers. Pre 05 you could sell your flashed ECU for someone else's stock ECU+cash. Can't do that now. When the time comes to part out and sell I'll have to flash back to stock and the next guy will have a free EcuTeK license on the car (whether they choose to use it or not).

[Richard B.]

what do the mods do to an 07+?

[Richard B.]

bump

[cfdrumr]

Can i get a PDX map to use with ECU Flash? I dont really want to buy an AP as I am doing Open Source right now but I wouldnt mind a pro-tune...

[PDXTuning]

No. Due to our relationship with EcuTek, and the nature of the origin of open source we do not support those tools.

[cfdrumr]

I must own a AP or EcuTek?

[ArcTec34]

buy a AP, you'll be happy.

[cfdrumr]

Idk...i mean i played with my cousins...they are really cool
but im low on $$$ and I can get the same performance for close to free with a lot of work!

[ArcTec34]

ok, well DONT do anything with ecuTEK

[westy66]

just watching.... :p

[cfdrumr]

will i see any gains between stock catback and stock+axleback?