Tire upgrades after purchase? [Archive]

IwannaSportSedan

07-02-2004, 12:13 PM

Since the rumors of limited braking, and just the general marginality of the stock tires, what tires would you replace them with?

I have been looking around on Tire Rack, and for Ultra High Performance and High Performance all season tires. (was looking anyway, for tires for my current vehicles)

I think I would probably go with the Bridgestone RE950 or PZero Nero M&S. 215/45-WR17. Not much selection in 225/40-17. Maybe 225/45-17, but that is getting wide for a 7" rim, and a taller sidewall.

Ideally, I would actually get some 18" rims,
BBS RGR (http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/bbs/bbs.jsp They also have gold...), or
Volk Racing Progressiv Spoke, or LE37T (http://rayswheels.co.jp/indexe.html)

Then I would put Bridgestone Potenza RE970s (225/40-YR18) on for the summer, and Bridgestone Blizzak LM22s (the only ones in stock size) on the stock rims for the winter. I think the car would be almost perfection on dedicated summer and winter tires, at least here in Iowa.

~145$/per tire for all *8* tires is expensive, on top of a new set of wheels. Almost $3400 total, at ~$502/wheel (bbs), and sales tax. With a set like that, one might as well throw a tire pressure monitoring setup on that, as well. I guess I have a lot to save up for, in addition to a down payment.

Maybe the Volks would be a lot less expensive, but I doubt it. I like all three of those wheels, plus they are all forged rims. I didn't enjoy replacing a cast rim and tire on the Miata last year, when my wife hit an ice chunk. The tire I can understand, but the ASA LS5 rim was more mangled than the tire, and cracked in the center of the rim valley.
This car is getting Bridgestone RE970s next year, too, now that I have dedicated snow tires for it. I'd love to put 16" Panasport wheels on it, but now I am getting off topic on my own thread... Maybe someday, with a Legacy and a truck, I can put the Miata away in the winter.

What tire or wheel & tire upgrades do y'all have in mind?

avarice

07-02-2004, 12:20 PM

Spring/Summer/Fall: Goodyear F1 G3-D3
Winter: Probably Blizzaks

SC GT

07-02-2004, 12:37 PM

I am intereted in the BF Goodrich KDWs. I think Tirerack refers to them as KDW-2s because they are the second gen. KDWs. Good wear, supposedly very good in the dry and excellent in the wet. As an added bonus, an aggressive tread pattern.

IwannaSportSedan

07-02-2004, 01:13 PM

just FYI,

BFG G-Force KDW and KDW-2 are two different tires, simultaneously offered.

I think they are similar, if not the same carcass, with the original having a standard directional tread pattern, and the -2 having more agressive tread compound, with the "tribal-flame" tread pattern.

just so there is no confusion.

godwhomismike

07-02-2004, 01:42 PM

gtguy

07-02-2004, 01:50 PM

Hmmmmmm..... I was on Tire Rack reading the reviews of two tires that were meantioned here. Everyone seemed to like the Goodyear F1 G3-D3 - they said it was an excellent tire, but not exactly meant to autocross with. The BFG G-Force KDW-2 sound like they are great, but excessively noisy - noisy to the point where people thought things were wrong with their front ends and suspensions.

Are the tires on the stock Legacy that bad, where it is worth dropping $700+ down on new tires?

Also, what is the stock tire size?

- Mike

1. The Eagle F1 is a very nice tire.
2. No, the tires on the Legacy are fine, just a bit below the overall level of the car itself.

I'm making the change simply because I have to get snows anyhow, and intend to put them on the stock rims, so the stock rubber will have to go.

Kevin

IwannaSportSedan

07-02-2004, 01:53 PM

I really don't know if the stock bridgestone Potenza RE92 tires are that bad, but everyone who has commented in this forum have not had great things to say. Some attribute the reported long 60-0 distance to the tires, and may very well be right.

Stock size for the GT is 215/45-wr17.
2.5i is probably slightly narrower on a 16" rim. Someone posted the PDF of the legacy brochure in another thread that will have all that info.

Opie

07-02-2004, 02:29 PM

1. The Eagle F1 is a very nice tire.
2. No, the tires on the Legacy are fine, just a bit below the overall level of the car itself.

Perfect reply. I had the Eagle F1 GS-D3's on my RS in the 215/45R17 size and they are an amazing tire, great grip, quiet and great wear. But honestly I've been pretty impressed with the low profile RE92's so far, I definitly won't be swapping them for the F1's until they are worn out, why waste the $600 :?:

http://www.subaruchallenge.com/Wills/re92poster.jpg

:lol:

godwhomismike

07-02-2004, 02:50 PM

I had the Eagle F1 GS-D3's on my RS in the 215/45R17 size and they are an amazing tire, great grip, quiet and great wear. But honestly I've been pretty impressed with the low profile RE92's so far, I definitly won't be swapping them for the F1's until they are worn out, why waste the $600 :?:

http://www.subaruchallenge.com/Wills/re92poster.jpg

:lol:

I love that pic - pretty funny. Some people around here are making those tires sound like they'll throw you right off the road the first time it rains or you take a turn a little too fast. Glad to hear that they are good tires, just not up to par with an all out sports car.

- Mike

gtguy

07-02-2004, 02:52 PM

The other thing worth noting is that the Z-rated RE92s are a different tire from the RE92 that we have come to know and dislike.

But, I went through two winters with my AWD Legacy GT wagon on the old-school RE92s, and I didn't notice anything was wrong until I noticed that a Ford Taurus had better snow traction than I did. That was when I learned about dedicated snows.

In the dry, the Z-rated RE92s are a pretty darned good tire, my foot/hands tell me. I wouldn't take ANY Z-rated tire in the snow, I don't care if the sidewall does say M+S.

Kevin

racerdave

07-02-2004, 04:42 PM

I still don't like the Z RE92s. There's a boat-load of tread squirm. They still suck. ;)

firedawgs

07-02-2004, 04:55 PM

Why all the talk on switching the tires. I have had no problems with these tires. They are Z rated and are a repreable name.

Ridgeracer

07-03-2004, 06:50 PM

What about some Nitto NT 555 for summer tires..?

WRXTom

07-03-2004, 07:15 PM

SC GT

07-03-2004, 08:23 PM

I think I saw them as stock equipment on a Toyota Corolla. That should tell you all you want to know about them.

SUBE555

07-03-2004, 09:05 PM

If you are going to keep the RE92s it is worth experimenting with tire pressures. The sidewalls are quite soft which gives a comfortable ride but somewhat lazy turn-in and limits cornering grip. Bumping up the pressure by 2-4 pounds helps.

That being said, and the subject has been beaten to death (especially for those of us coming from WRXs), the tires are really no match for a solid summer tire. If handling performance is a priorty then consider investing in good tires right away. If you keep them, the RE92s will likely give you 2 years of use before they wear out, and they do wear quickly, but that is 2 years driving on mediocre tires that limit the capabilities of the car. Or you could pull 'em off your new car, sell them for a few bucks and use the cash for new rubber. My advice is to grit your teeth and spend the money.

Tom

I generally run about 39F/37R on my CEC's and the previous Dunlop D60 H2's on my current '97 GT with stock 205/55R-16 size. It's a bit better than stock which feels really mushy, while these pressures (at least for the 16" size) felt much more secure. I know with the new 17" setup and my Toyo's, I will also be testing pressures above stock. Probably mid-high 30's.

I looked at the situation like this:
Considering I already have had a bad taste towards RE92's and any dusting of snow even as well as their wear rates, I had two choices: run then really hard til the snow flies and put on some better A/S rubber (as I've stated elsewhere, we just don't get quite enough days of snow to require dedicated snows), or just get credit for the stock tires and throw on tires of my choice.

I went with option two and for the upgrade of around $200, I'm not complaining. I don't forsee any regrets. I chose the Toyo's for their combination of performance values and price. It was nearly tied with the Pirelli PZero Nero M&S for ability by ratings, but it was about $100 less for the set. I figured it's still got to be quite a bit better than the RE92's. :mrgreen:

WRXTom

07-03-2004, 09:27 PM

I need to start thinking about my next summer tire. The Kuhmo MXs should make it to the end of the summer but perhaps not. The Legacy builds speed quickly and cornering speeds are, ummm, enthusiastic :) . The Kuhmos corner better than any other tire I have used but I wouldn't buy them again...too noisy. They were new to market with solid reviews so I gave them a try.

Also, I need to buy winters. I had Pirelli Snowsport 210s on the WRX and they worked well. A friend of mine is a dealer for Pirelli.

We get mucho snow here so dedicated summers and winters are the way to go.

Tom

neutrino60

07-05-2004, 05:38 PM

...or just get credit for the stock tires and throw on tires of my choice.

Will the dealer usually take back the stock tires (and install the new ones) at time of purchase and give you credit, or would a tire dealer do this?

Jim

SUBE555

07-05-2004, 11:29 PM

Well, it all depends on the dealer Jim, some will, some won't- mine would. Just have to ask. :)

7stars

07-06-2004, 03:23 AM

The bad versions of the RE92 are the S and H rated ones. Actually, I thought my S rated ones were quite grippy, but I was a honduh kid who thought he was riding on F1 technology. :D

They did slide and crashed my car, but it didn't help that I had them at 40psi and there was also black ice, which not even a snow tire can overcome.

My second car with the H rated ones were a different story. Horrible right off the bat. Some customers were able to get them exchanged for the Michelins that were put on the higher end trim.
Oh and believe it or not, the Turanza EL41 on my Accord are even worse.

I was wondering, were any of you able to trade in these brand new tires and get some sort of discount on a new set?

SUBE555

07-06-2004, 12:14 PM

Like I mentioned, I got credit for my tires. I got my desired tires for much cheaper than they could get them so I ordered my own and had them shipped to the dealer I am working with. They didn't have a problem with that. I got I think $50 credit/tire. Well worth me not having to think about RE92's and needing to replace them prior to winter rolling in.

PPower

07-06-2004, 11:37 PM

Seth, that's a great idea. I didn't realize that dealerships would do that, but $50/tire sure helps swallowing the purchase of new tires. I'm surprised you didn't go for the Nero set though.

SUBE555

07-07-2004, 01:07 AM

I went for the Toyo's, they were about $100 less, and from what I've read, they should be neck in neck. Is it really worth $100 at that point? It's a new tire, figured it was worth a whirl. Heh, someone has to try them out. :D

Any way you shake it, they're better than stock RE92's. :P

RangerMan

07-10-2004, 10:33 PM

Not much selection in 225/40-17. Maybe 225/45-17, but that is getting wide for a 7" rim

I have 225/70R15 as standard equipment on my Ford Ranger which has 6" rims.

IwannaSportSedan

07-10-2004, 10:51 PM

Not much selection in 225/40-17. Maybe 225/45-17, but that is getting wide for a 7" rim

I have 225/70R15 as standard equipment on my Ford Ranger which has 6" rims.

the trick there is the "70" in 225-70-R15. That means the sidewall is 70% of the width of the tread, 225mm. That means the sidewall is 157.5mm tall.

Essentially, what I am trying to say, with a 70 series tires, especially for a light truck , you can mount it to a wider range of rim widths, because the sidewalls can accommodate it, by flexing inward or outward to meet the narrower, or wider wheel rim, plus they have a larger maximum width, with the "balloon effect" (the roundness) of the sidewall.

A 40 series performance tire, that is the same 225mm wide, has only 90mm of sidewall, which doesn't flex inward nearly as much, and are more stable when the sidewall is vertical, at a 90degree angle to the tread, and a lot less rounded. It is much more sensitive to having the wheel width very close to the width of the tread blocks.

BTW, having the wheel width wider than the treadblock width is usually not a great idea, and it'd look like a low-rider on whitewalls.

Also, I have a 2000 Ranger, as well, and it will be getting ~235/70-R16 (or something similar) Bridgestone Dueller AT Revos on the stock 16x7" wheels this fall.
But those are much different that the Bridgestone Potenza RE730 215/45-ZR16 summer tires that will go on the Miata's aftermarket 16x7 wheels it has on it, next spring.

SUBE555

07-10-2004, 11:15 PM

Just for reference, back in the Sept '02 issue of SCC (had to look this up, but remembered the article), they talked about some of the Gymkhana cars Bozz performance produces. Granted it's for the ultimate in smooth tarmac machines, but they were using 17x8.5" wheels with 225/40 and 245/40 on the Subarus while one EVO was using 17x8" with 255/40 and the other 17x9.5" F/17x8.5" R both shod with 255/40 series rubber.

That's just some extreme examples, but just shows what can be done with wheels and tires.

Usually a tire will have a recommended wheel width and an acceptable wheel range. If you are more on the side of ride, sticking to the middle size of narrower wheel will work, while handling, you generally want as wide of wheel as is feasible to keep the sidewall fairly square as noted. But with that more square sidewall, handling will suffer some, all depends greatly on the tire though.

Rimfaxe

07-13-2004, 04:21 PM

I was thinking PZero Nero- Didn't see it mentioned much in this thread, but it seemed to have good reviews on TireRack.

SUBE555

07-13-2004, 04:41 PM

It does, reason I went with the Toyo, I've seen similar reviews for the Toyo and it was about $100 less for the set. That's some bling. :)

Xenonk

07-18-2004, 03:07 AM

IwannaSportSedan

07-18-2004, 01:29 PM

Just to let you know, I will be taking off the stock 17" tires and replacing it with 225/45/17 Falken Azenis (autocross, track days). And for the all season run-around, I have a set of 18" rims that I will sport with 225/40/18 Toyo Proxes4.

Keefe

Are you putting the Falkens on the stock 17" rims?

Just curious why you would put on aftermarket rims for day-to-day, but using stock rims for racing.

Stock road wheels on most cars are cast, heavy, and while not weak, they aren't a paragon of strength.

I would think that aftermarket forged rims, like SSR Comps, prodrive, or similar, would be a better choice for autox and track days. Low unsprung weight, and high strength. Then you could either e-bay the stock rims, and buy cast or forged 18s for road wheels, or have some 17s for snow tires, or whatever.

Plus I would think that the 40 series tires on wider rims would work better for on-the-track handling, with the 45 series on narrower rims would be a little more compliant for potholed roads.

That said, I think I would put 225/40-18s summer ultra-performance tires on for the street, as well. I'd probably put them on 18x7.5 BBS RGRs, or maybe SSR GT2s for the summer (and any track day I might want to do will likely be in the miata), and use the 17's for snow tires. But that is just me. I can completely understand if your plans and situations require something else.

SUBE555

07-18-2004, 02:21 PM

IWSS, I agree on your take of that for the most part, but not entirely.

While yes, the stock wheels may not be optimal for racing, if you aren't all-out competitive, they should be just fine, what's 2lbs/corner if you're only moderately competitive? Not enough for the average weekend driver to know. I may actually pick up an extra set of stock GT wheels for race next year, but I'm just not positive about that yet. Forged versus cast versus one of the newer flow forming technologies, personally unless I want to drop a LOT of cash into wheels alone, I'd go with a good cast or flow forming produced wheel. Decent balance of cost for what you get when most people won't know the difference. If you're competitive, well, you know the answer to that already.

I do however believe 17's will be a better all-around mix for winter and 18's for summer, especially if you are in a location where pavement moves/heaves and potholes develop. Might be a bit harsher than you'd like otherwise. I'm considering 18" for the summer, but we'll see. Might be just a good set of Toyo RA-1 race rubber on those babies (or wider 17" rubber, I like the RA-1 for AutoX, but narrowest you can get is 235/40 IIRC, which is questionable on fittment.)

IwannaSportSedan

07-18-2004, 02:44 PM

While yes, the stock wheels may not be optimal for racing, if you aren't all-out competitive, they should be just fine, what's 2lbs/corner if you're only moderately competitive?

Thanks for the input. And you are right. I think the difference would be more than just a couple of pounds, though.

I remember the cast 16"s on my 93 Probe GT with tires mounted were something like 44lbs each. Not saying that the legacy's wheels are that heavy, but wheel weight reduction isn't top priority from the factory.

A good set of 17-18" forged rims alone shouldn't weigh much more than 19-20 lbs. and I wouldn't think a tire with such a short sidewall would weigh much more than 5-10lbs. 15-20lbs/per wheel, (60-80lbs total) less unsprung, gyroscopic weight should be quite noticeable in acceleration, braking, and handling.

Then there is the durability aspect. Flow-formed wheels are probably a good compromize. I've had to replace a cast aftermarket wheel on the miata, and it cracked pretty easily, big one right in the center of the rim (deepest part). I am now a good believer in strong wheels. My wife hit an ice chunk, but could have just as easily been an animal, or good-sized tree branch, or any number of things on the road.

Ya know what they say, "horses that don't need to turn the wheels, get to accellerate the car."

Xenonk

07-18-2004, 10:52 PM

Are you putting the Falkens on the stock 17" rims?

That said, I think I would put 225/40-18s summer ultra-performance tires on for the street, as well. I'd probably put them on 18x7.5 BBS RGRs, or maybe SSR GT2s for the summer (and any track day I might want to do will likely be in the miata), and use the 17's for snow tires. But that is just me. I can completely understand if your plans and situations require something else.

The aftermarket rims I have are strong for everyday driving, not to mention it looks great :D Suprisingly enough, the stock rims are pretty light for what they are, so I am not going to purposely shell out another $1500 to $3000 for SSRs, FIKSEs, or any EXTREMELY LIGHTWEIGHT wheels at this time to save 2 to 3 lbs. I think just by using Toyo T1-S tires instead would save me the 1 to 2 lbs in weight.

NOTE: I still need to double check the fender clearance for offset sizing and suspension geometry, rather than just buying a set of rims that just 'work' for the car. I would hate to buy a rim/tire setup that hasnt been R&D on this new chassis.

Falken Azenis tires are known to have one of the stiffest side walls, but just enough give and flex to give the driver feedback of the adhesion limit of the rubber, basically they act almost like an 18" wheel (good road feedback and quick steering response). I would go with a 225/40/17 tire, but Falken Azenis doesnt come in that size. I like the Azenis because of their Asymetrical design (one less trip to the tire shop to get directionals flipped).

As for the aftermarket rims, I am probably going with either Toyo T1-S or Proxes4 (I dont need to push that hard in the public street).

I can always stop by the tire shop to remount a the stock RE92s on the stock rims :wink:

FYI: I was reading up that adding 1 lb. of rotational weight of the wheel is equivalent to having 50 lbs. of unsprung weight in the car in motion. So with 4 wheels, and if you used a rim that was 1 lb. heavier than stock, the car will act as if it had 100lbs of deadweight. Thank goodness that it's dynamic. So yes, 1 lb can feel like a big difference. I read some other thread on this forum that the stock rim and tire weight was 42 lbs. I'll confirm that later when I get the car and the corner balancing scales.

Keefe

billyjoejimbob

01-05-2005, 12:32 AM

I live in southern Michigan... significant winter snow, but we still spend most of our winter driving on wet salted pavement. I plan to stay with one set of tires year round. RE92s aren't great, but they're OK until replacement time comes.

I'll step up to 225/45-17s on stock rims when the time comes... the stock 215s look wimpy on the LGT. Right now, Perelli P Zero Nero M&S looks good to me. Two other cost effective options: Cooper Lifeliner SLE Sport and Avon Tech M550 A/S look like great values if the performance is decent... TBD.

If I were inclined to do two sets of tires and wheels: 205/50-17 snows on the stock wheels, and 225/40-18 summer tires on 18x8s for the good weather.

98hawk

01-05-2005, 06:16 AM

Don't get too caught up in grip only. I don't think a legacy has the suspension to handle an aggressive tire. Body roll is pretty bad, would be worse with better tires. I don't dissagree about the tires leaving a little to be desired, But if you are after performance, I would look at putting money into suspension before wheels. That's just my thought.

TonyDB

01-05-2005, 01:35 PM

IMO, the tires are weak link and therefore the first upgrade I'd recommend to anybody looking to improve the way the LGT handles. When I say "handles", I don't mean just sticking in the twisties. Braking is just as important, if not more so. Good rubber will improve both stopping distances and provide additional grip in the twisties.

I think the stock suspension is pretty good. I don't want a car that transmits every road imperfection. The only suspension mod I will make is to go to the JDM 20mm rear sway bar with a slightly more aggressive alignment. That should reduce body roll somewhat and do a better job of keeping the rear-end more firmly planted.

Euclid

01-05-2005, 01:54 PM

Summer tires will be: Kumho ECSTA MX

Winter tires will be: Bridgestone Blizzak WS-50

outahere

01-05-2005, 03:24 PM

........ The only suspension mod I will make is to go to the JDM 20mm rear sway bar with a slightly more aggressive alignment. That should reduce body roll somewhat and do a better job of keeping the rear-end more firmly planted.

Wouldn't increasing the rear roll stiffness with the larger diameter rear bar lead to more oversteer and make the rear end even more tail happy than it already is?

TonyDB

01-06-2005, 06:52 AM

outahere, I'm not a suspension expert by any means. I did do a similar mod on my last car, an A4, which was recommended by a suspension guy and I liked the result. My take on it is that stiffening the rear will inhibit some body roll. To keep the rear end of the car planted in the twisties, you want to try to keep the weight as evenly distributed as posible on the two rear tires. The lateral forces will always shift the car weight in favour of the outside tires in a turn. That's a given. However, the more body roll you have, the more weight you'll have shift to the outside tires.

I also noticed that in an earlier thread, Paul at AVO recommended this upgrade for USDM LGT's and actually organized a group buy last month.

XT6Wagon

01-16-2005, 06:00 PM

gtguy, having put the "cheapy" Michelin pilot allseasons on the LGT, I can say without a doubt that the RE-92's are still very very bad tires. when handling wet and dry increases, plus quieter and softer ride... you know the old tires sucked.

Scooter

01-17-2005, 10:39 AM

BillyJoe - I noticed an oddity in the tire specs when I was shopping for new tires: the stock RE92's have a much narrower tread width than other brands in the 215/45 size. The RE92's are listed at 7.1" tread width, and most others at 8.3". All have the same 8.2-8.3" section width, but the the reason the RE92's look wimpy is that they don't have the same profile as other 215/45's. I confirmed this when I put on the PZero's in the same stock size: noticibly wider tread / much more square profile: more aggressive looking!

I hadn't had the car long enough to notice any negative traits from the RE92's; I just decided I hadn't spent $30k on a car only to have *questionable* tires on it. From my Miata experience I know that tires make a bigger performance difference than pretty much any other mod, so I made the switch. $380 out the door, including a measly $20 per tire that the shop offered for the RE92's. But I'm lazy, so I took it rather than trying for more on my own...

Tide

01-19-2005, 01:00 PM

Moved to Wheels/Tires forum.

PGT

01-19-2005, 02:24 PM

the RE92a's do have a narrow section width. This worked to my advantage as I put them on a set of used wheels to use as the winter set for out MINI Cooper. It has 205/45/17's Dunlop SP9000's from the factory. 215's are a little big, but still usable so the smallish RE92a's split the difference and keep them very close to stock. Amazingly, they handle better than the DSST run-flat's on the stock MINI wheels.

driggity

01-19-2005, 04:24 PM

The RE-92s are probably a lot lighter than the runflats which can help matters alot, especially if the roads aren't smooth. When I switched from summer to winter tires on my WRX I noticed that the winters had a lot less grip but helped the car stay better composed over bumpy sections of road. I used the same type of wheels with each tire but the winter tires weighed more than 3 lbs lighter each.

On the Legacy I plan on leaving the stock tires on for now, but will be getting some wider wheels with wider summer tires once it consistently warms up. Then next winter I'll probably go with Nokian WRs on the stock rims. They're a great match for the kinds of winters that we get around here.