Toyo Proxes 4 VS PZero Nero M&S (All-Season Showdown)

[SUBE555]

Well folks, I have a couple days to make the choice. I am selecting an all-season tire for my new GT Wagon coming in the next couple of days and want to have the tires for the car at the dealership within the next week or so. I'm so torn between these two, the Pirelli has been around for a little bit while the Toyo is listed as relatively new. Yes, I know of the trade-offs in ultimate dry and ultimate snow traction levels with an A/S tire, but if either is close to my Conti CEC's in the snow and definitely better in the dry, it'll be fine for daily driving. I will have something else for warm weather and/or racing.

So here is the info, help me decide:

Toyo Proxes 4 (http://www.toyo.com/tires/tire_lines/high_perf/proxes_4.html)
http://www.toyo.com/tires/tire_lines/high_perf/proxes4_images/proxes4_large.jpg

Pirelli PZero Nero M&S (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=PZero+Nero+M% 26S)
http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/pirelli/pi_p_zero_nero_ci2_l.jpg
(The Pirelli site barely has any info.)

[axis008]

Now the only opinion I have on the Pirellis is from the Tire Rack site. Since you said that the Proxes is a new tire, do you think reviews from the Tire Rack site can provide an accurate analysis of the tire? (I haven't checked yet)

[SUBE555]

I'm just going by description. 1010tires gives a bias towards the Toyo. *shrug*

1010Tires.com Results (if they mean anything...)

RE92's
Dry-3.3
Wet-2
Snow-1.5
Handling-2.9
Comfort-2.8
Noise-2.6
Treadwear-1.8
Overall-2.4


The Pirelli:
Dry-4.9
Wet-4.2
Snow-3
Handling-4.7
Comfort-4.4
Noise-4.4
Treadwear-4.4
Overall-4.3


The Toyo:
Dry-4.8
Wet-4.7
Snow-3.3
Handling-4.8
Comfort-4.8
Noise-4.7
Treadwear-4.6
Overall-4.6

BTW, has anyone used OnlineTires.com? They seem to have just about the best prices on the Toyo's at $91per.

[DrGT]

I am taking delivery of my Limited GT wagon this afternoon :D :D :D
I've had the RE92 changed for a set of P-Zero Nero M+S ...
Hope they're good!

Paul Hansen review was interesting (a few weeks ago I guess).

BTW, I don't need snow capabilities as I will use real winter tires (lots of snow and ice here in Québec!)

[Dr. Zevil]

I guess I don't know what to tell you Sube. You have me wondering about my Pzero purchase. Those Toyo's look really nice and they are cheaper. I will look around for a review on them. I am always one to play it relatively safe so I might just stick to the Pirelli's. I will have a look around for you (and me).

[racerdave]

Let's not forget that compared to most other tires in that size, the Pirelli's are cheap too.

Nothing against the Toyos, but I've not read a bad word about the Pirelli's anywhere.

[Drift Monkey]

The Toyos seems to have higher marks. I don't think I'll vote, because I have 0 experience with either set. :lol:

[Dr. Zevil]

Let's not forget that compared to most other tires in that size, the Pirelli's are cheap too.

Nothing against the Toyos, but I've not read a bad word about the Pirelli's anywhere.

This is true. And this is why I will be going with the Pirelli's.

[SUBE555]

Maybe I should just play Devil's advocate and order the Toyo's so we have a good comparison. It's relatively new as I've seen and a few marks on NASIOC I've seen thus far paint the picture fairly well in it's case.

How about Ross, you get the Nero's and I'll get the Proxes 4's and we can both test each others cars to see how they feel? Should be a fairly even comparison. :)

[racerdave]

Works for me. :)

Good idea Seth.

Hey, the odds of either tire being dramatically better than the RE92s are pretty freakin' high, so I don't think you'd lose with either tire.

[Drift Monkey]

Maybe I should just play Devil's advocate and order the Toyo's so we have a good comparison. It's relatively new as I've seen and a few marks on NASIOC I've seen thus far paint the picture fairly well in it's case.

How about Ross, you get the Nero's and I'll get the Proxes 4's and we can both test each others cars to see how they feel? Should be a fairly even comparison. :)
I personally, for some reason, would go with the Toyos. I know the Pirellis are tested and true, but think of what you could be missing.

Take the risk (so the rest dont have to). :P

[SUBE555]

I think I'm going to order the Toyo's. They're new, based on the T1-S in construction as far as I've heard. Yes, I can't go wrong with either in comparison to the RE92 anyhow.

Someone has to try them. :P

[Dr. Zevil]

Where are you going to order them from? I know you saw that thread over on NASIOC because you posted in it. I think I am just going to have tire rack drop ship my Pirelli's at Chilson's. Who know's, they may screw up our order's once the tires get there and you may end up with the Pirellis and I might end up with the Toyos. I think that either choice is going to be vaslty superior to anything that we could choose in the ultra0high performance all-season segment. I can't wait to get my car.. and I get it exactly the way I want it.


On another note: I never had any problems in winter with my RE92's so I wonder if I will have any problems with the pzeros? I don't want to use a dedicated snow tire because, like you said Seth, it's just not worth it.

[SUBE555]

Here is where I was looking at the Toyo's: OnlineTires.com (http://www.ec-securehost.com/OnlineTires.com/Toyo_Proxes_4.html).

[Dr. Zevil]

Did you see the other website that had some cheap Toyo's on it?

http://www.treadepot.com/tireswheels.c/orders/index.html

[praedet]

I have actually seen a lot of bad feedback on Pirellis. Take a search through the R-forum board on swedespeed. The Pzeros have given them a lot of trouble. I actually have heard good things about the Toyos, nothing about this specific Pirelli.

[racerdave]

Yes, but...

The PZeros are not the same tire as the Nero. The PZeros on the Volvo R's are the old style PZero, which is a design that's quite a bit older than the Nero's.

When I was referring to good feedback on the Pirellis, I was referring to the Nero's and Nero M&S.

[Drift Monkey]

Needless to say I voted for the Toyos in spite of you PZero fanboys. :P

[Dr. Zevil]

I wouldn't say that I am a fanboy of anything.. I don't know enough about it to have an opinion. :lol:

As a matter of fact I like the tread patterns on both the Toyos and the Pirellis. I think that I will go with the Pirellis though. Don't worry DM, you pushed me over the edge on getting the RBP.. you can't win them all.

[Th3Franz]

Good, Seth and Ross, get different tires and compare them. Then I will know what to decide since I too am deciding between these two tires.

[axis008]

Good, Seth and Ross, get different tires and compare them. Then I will know what to decide since I too am deciding between these two tires.
Haha, I like that!

[outahere]

Get a set of Toyos, burn through them in 15,000 miles, then get the Pirellis and burn through them in 15,000 miles. The best of both worlds.

[Dr. Zevil]

Good, Seth and Ross, get different tires and compare them. Then I will know what to decide since I too am deciding between these two tires.

Someone needs to compare them :lol: I still find it hard to believe that RE92s cost more than the pzeros. There is no justice. I wonder how they sell any of those.

[SUBE555]

Just taking another look at the digits...

Toyo is a 91W load rating which equates to 1356lbs/corner, while the Pirelli is an 87W, which equates to 1201lbs/corner.

Just food for thought.

BTW, ordered the Toyos from TreaDepot.com for $402 shipped! Can't beat that!

[Dr. Zevil]

The load rating shouldn't matter in the least though should it?

[SUBE555]

Might make the tire a little stiffer in the sidewall as it would have to be able to deflect more. Just a guess.

[outahere]

Just taking another look at the digits...

Toyo is a 91W load rating which equates to 1356lbs/corner, while the Pirelli is an 87W, which equates to 1201lbs/corner.

Just food for thought.

BTW, ordered the Toyos from TreaDepot.com for $402 shipped! Can't beat that!

What is the load rating on the OE tire?

[SUBE555]

Closest thing I can find from incomplete results are that it's an 87W, but please someone with a GT already go out and check, it will say on the sidewall.

[outahere]

One thing you rarely see is load ratings for the wheel. Makes you wonder what is the limiting factor, the load rating of the tire or the wheel.

[Drift Monkey]

I wouldn't say that I am a fanboy of anything.. I don't know enough about it to have an opinion. :lol:

As a matter of fact I like the tread patterns on both the Toyos and the Pirellis. I think that I will go with the Pirellis though. Don't worry DM, you pushed me over the edge on getting the RBP.. you can't win them all.
Color is more important than tire choice, at least in this sitaution. I don't think you can really lose any way you go. Almost ANYTHING is better than RE92s!

RBP however is clearly superior. :P

[Dr. Zevil]

I wouldn't say that I am a fanboy of anything.. I don't know enough about it to have an opinion. :lol:

As a matter of fact I like the tread patterns on both the Toyos and the Pirellis. I think that I will go with the Pirellis though. Don't worry DM, you pushed me over the edge on getting the RBP.. you can't win them all.
Color is more important than tire choice, at least in this sitaution. I don't think you can really lose any way you go. Almost ANYTHING is better than RE92s!

RBP however is clearly superior. :P

;)

I need to order my tires tonight.. My credit card is weeping :lol:

[SUBE555]

One thing you rarely see is load ratings for the wheel. Makes you wonder what is the limiting factor, the load rating of the tire or the wheel.

I don't think I've ever seen wheels listed with a 'load rating'. The tire is supporting the load, not the wheel. The hub section may be taking a bit more of the forced than the rest, and if you bottom the wheel into the tire such as a pothole, you have a better chance of damaging the wheel of course, but back to the comment, I've never seen such a thing.

Go with your instincts on wheel design and basic knowledge of metallurgy. Forged is stronger because of density and grain structure than cast, in given volume, forged materials are heavier, but forged materials are far stronger and forged products can be made with less material volume. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which wheel designs have a better chance of being stronger, lighter, weaker, etc.

[outahere]

One thing you rarely see is load ratings for the wheel. Makes you wonder what is the limiting factor, the load rating of the tire or the wheel.

I don't think I've ever seen wheels listed with a 'load rating'. The tire is supporting the load, not the wheel.
Enkei and Centerline list load ratings for many of their truck/SUV alloy wheels. Some of the Centerlines are listed at 3200lbs.

I would say both the wheel and tire support the load.

[SUBE555]

Trucks, never seen it for cars. Hell, the GT weighs just more than that, can't imagine all that weight, even force would go through one wheel.

[brady_bunch]

I need to order my tires tonight.. My credit card is weeping :lol:
I'm sure my card will be commiserating with yours in the very near future. :)

I'm trying to decide on whether to get new 17" tires on the stock rims now or wear the stock tires out first and then get the 18" Gialla rims and new tires. Hmmm... decisions, decisions. At least I know what kind of tires I'm getting now... the Pirellis.

[Dr. Zevil]

I need to order my tires tonight.. My credit card is weeping :lol:
I'm sure my card will be commiserating with yours in the very near future. :)

I'm trying to decide on whether to get new 17" tires on the stock rims now or wear the stock tires out first and then get the 18" Gialla rims and new tires. Hmmm... decisions, decisions. At least I know what kind of tires I'm getting now... the Pirellis.

Thos wheels can't be cheap! Sorry to hear about your upcoming CC woes! :lol:

[Dr. Zevil]

Proxies 4 are now $89 at www.treadepot.com.. the pirellis got more expensive over the last week and the toyo's have dropped price. odd.

[SUBE555]

Like I told you on the phone, wouldn't blame you if you got the Proxes.

As per the wheels, I think the look great on that car, I might actually get a second set for AutoX if they prove light.

[racerdave]

Not that odd Z... Euro exchange rates vs. Yen. :)

[Dr. Zevil]

Not that odd Z... Euro exchange rates vs. Yen. :)

"Vendor's, Start your gouging!"

:lol:

I am going to order the Toyo's tonight.. I feel sorry for my credit card.. it's been raped over the last 4 weeks :( :lol:

[outahere]

Sooooooooo, who is the winner of this showdown, Toyo or Pirelli?

[SUBE555]

Well I can't speak for the Pirelli, but DAMN! These Toyo's stick well! Great all-around as I've tested thus far. Beyond and above my best hopes and dreams so far. That's dry testing only so far. Have yet to test rain and snow. Will let ya'll know when I get to those elements.

[racerdave]

So better than the RE92s? ;)

[SUBE555]

Wouldn't know anymore for a direct comparison as I refused to take delivery of the car without them. :P No, from what I know of RE92's, it really is an upgrade. Those babies (Proxes 4's) stick!

[outahere]

Well I can't speak for the Pirelli, but DAMN! These Toyo's stick well! Great all-around as I've tested thus far. Beyond and above my best hopes and dreams so far. That's dry testing only so far. Have yet to test rain and snow. Will let ya'll know when I get to those elements.

I predict they will do well in the rain, just based on looking at the tread pattern. But in the snow, I predict they will not do that well. The Proxes4 seem to be an all season tire that is biased towards summer dry&wet performance rather than snow traction. The tire has been, from what I have read, compounded so as to perform well in cold weather, so you probably will not have to worry about them turning into stone when the temperature drops below 40 deg.

[SUBE555]

From what I've talked to a a few people with them in mountainous areas, I get decent vibes. I understand they aren't a pure snow tire, but you have to understand that and you're alright.

They measured comparably or better than the Neros in a comparo I saw and I know of a few with the Neros and they said they did fairly well in several inches of the white stuff.

I'm not too worried.

[racerdave]

Wouldn't know anymore for a direct comparison as I refused to take delivery of the car without them. :P No, from what I know of RE92's, it really is an upgrade. Those babies (Proxes 4's) stick!

You and Franz need to do back-to-back comparison tests in each other's cars... :D

[Th3Franz]

Wouldn't know anymore for a direct comparison as I refused to take delivery of the car without them. :P No, from what I know of RE92's, it really is an upgrade. Those babies (Proxes 4's) stick!

You and Franz need to do back-to-back comparison tests in each other's cars... :D
hehe, once Seth gets his car broken in, maybe at the next autox.

[SUBE555]

Should be over 600 tomorrow. Now taking it to work daily, which that alone is about 30mi.

Just filled her up for the second time today. :)

[outahere]

You and Franz need to do back-to-back comparison tests in each other's cars... :D

Yeah, I second that request!

[SUBE555]

AutoX next weekend perhaps. :)

[jim1969]

For those of us on the fence between the two please post your results.

[SUBE555]

Well, Franz will be on stock RE92's in a base GT 5MT sedan, I will be in my base GT Wagon 5MT w/ Toyo Proxes 4's. I have raced since last season (3 AutoX's, 1 RallyX, a few ice races, and have attended several events since, jus haven't had the *NEED* to race as selling my driving machine.)

Should be interesting. :cool:

[jim1969]

Let us know if you come up against PZero Nero M+S's. Even any Falken Ziex ZE 512's. Those are the three I'm considering. Thanks.

[SUBE555]

Not likely, not on a new GT anyhow. I only know of one other GT in the area, a manager at the dealership I believe.

[Limeydriver]

I am a big fan of Toyo. I had 2 sets of Proxes ST's on my Jeep. They were a great tire. I got 50,000 out of the first set. They are not the greatest in snow but acceptable. Also they are very quiet tires and wear well.

[outahere]

Let's not forget that compared to most other tires in that size, the Pirelli's are cheap too.

Nothing against the Toyos, but I've not read a bad word about the Pirelli's anywhere.

The only major complaints I have seen about the ZeroNero M&S, at tirerack's site, is that they tramline on grooved highways, and get noisy as the miles accumulate. On the other hand, other customers say they have had no problems with tramlining or excessive noise. Not sure what to make of these conflicting reports.

[SUBE555]

I would imagine part has to do with the tire size. ;)

[Xenonk]

Just wondering why isnt the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S isnt a choice?

Keefe

[SUBE555]

I never threw it in for cost comparison and it wasn't available in stock size. I didn't feel like going with a wider tire on that size rim just to get that ultra-expensive tire. The Pirelli rated about the same as the Toyo and Michelin, but the spread went as follows... Toyo- under $100, Pirelli $115-125 range, Michelin about $175.

Take your pick, I kept the extra $300 in my pocket.

[RedSectorA]

Got an 02 Legacy a couple of years ago and just replaced the RE92 (worst crap I have ever seen) with Toyo's Proxes 4. I changed the RE'S cuz I hit one too many curb!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Re92's forced me to oversteer all the time when cornering whereas the Proxes is neutral, the car can even be induced in in some mild throttle steer (yes a 2.5 normally aspirated can be throttled steered). I have been amazed at the car's handling since the tire change and even makes up for some of that models inefficiencies (not so stiff chassis, small swaybar, fairly soft suspension). It makes it fun to drive it again! My other car is an 04 3 series (Sport Package) and although the Legacy handles differently (different suspension geometry, RWD vs. AWD, etc...) the difference is much closer than before.

Strongly recommend!

BTW why do those &%$/""!$* at Subaru spend so much in engineering a beautiful car and then destroy it with those tires? They have been using the RE's for a number of years now and should know how cheap they are (not in price BTW but in quality).

[SUBE555]

It probably gets them a couple tenths better on CAFE numbers and they are likely getting a killer deal (or some salesperson made one heck of a presentation.) The enthusiast circles still can't figure it out and the general consensus is we'd definitely like a switcheroo to something better, and there is a lot better for the money.

A agree, the P4's rock! :mrgreen:

[BookemDano]

I agree, the P4's rock! :mrgreen:
Yep. Here's mine! About three hours old. :D

Thanks, SUBE555! You led the way. I only have about 5 miles on them, but I feel a big difference. A bit quieter and better riding, and the handling is MUCH more solid and planted.

Regards,

Dan.

[SUBE555]

No problem Dan, they seem to be a great value, just like the Leggy. Maybe a match made in heaven. :lol:

It appears to be a good solid tire. I never had RE92's on my current model, but I don't have any quams about getting the P4's instead. Great price, good performance, and comfortable/quiet.

Okay, I'll get off my soap box again. :P

[BookemDano]

Okay, I'll get off my soap box again. :P

Absolutely NOT! Climb right back on that soapbox. There are still thousands a Subies still using the Bridgestones!

Today was was second day with the Toyos. They handle SO nicely. I had a chance to test the braking today too because a Toyota braked suddenly in front of me. It felt very stable.

One odd thing about noise and ride... On some roads, they are VERY quiet; on other roads, they seem noisy. Not really bad, just odd. Same goes for the ride. On some bumps they flow right over; on others, you feel it. Again, not really too bad, just odd.

Keep up the great soapbox work!

Regards,

Dan.

[jim1969]

are the rim protectors as pronounced on the Proxes 4 as on the RE92's and how big of a deal is it that the Proxes 4 are unidirectional whereas the Pirelli PZero Nero M+S aren't?

[BookemDano]

The rim protectors are more pronounced on the RE92's than the Proxes 4's. I'm not worried about the Proxes 4's not being unidirectional.

Oh, by the way. I sold the Legacy GT. The seat was very uncomfortable for me and it couldn't be fixed. Oh, well.

Best of luck,

Dan.

[outahere]

The rim protectors are more pronounced on the RE92's than the Proxes 4's. I'm not worried about the Proxes 4's not being unidirectional.

Oh, by the way. I sold the Legacy GT. The seat was very uncomfortable for me and it couldn't be fixed. Oh, well.

Best of luck,

Dan.

Bummer. Couldn't you find an aftermarket seat, like a Recaro perhaps, so that you would not have had to sell your new car? You would have to give up the side airbag in the stock seat, but since it seems to offer very little protection anyway, it would not have been a big loss.

[BoxerGT2.5]

I have had the Proxes 4's for about 1 week. Huge improvement over the OEM potenza's. 225x40x18. :)

[SUBE555]

I started running the pressures at about 42/40 for AutoX yesterday. Wasn't really happy with the setup. I pushed the setup to 46/43. Wow, that made some difference. They broke free less and were more apt to actually sticking better in corners. They're still an A/S tire, but they do well IMO at least for being that.

I'm still running those pressures on the street and somehow like it a lot even though they're rather firm.

[scubie02]

I wish I knew how good they were in the snow--I might consider them.

[SUBE555]

I'll find out first hand. I'm really happy in wet and dry with them however.

[scubie02]

Have you used other high performance all seasons besides the re-92's? How do you feel they compare to others you have tried? How about in comparison to any dedicated summers you have used in the past?

I know it'll never happen that I'll find all seasons that aren't much worse than something like a yoko avs es 100 in the summer but have some acceptable winter traction too, but I can dream... ;P

[Rimfaxe]

after 10k miles I nicked the RF sidewall on a curb drain. I was slowly backing out of a parking space. I put a tiny half inch scrape in the rim but I also cut into the sidewall. Installing a new RE92 was not an option- most likely it would be an out of spec size by now compared to the LF tire. The new Bridgestones were about $180 locally, less on line, but I just couldn't see buying another one.

I decided to get the Toyo Proxes 4. About $100 each delivered. Had them installed on Friday and currently have about 100 miles on them. So far, they seem to grip better than the OEM tires. On the downside, they make a much more noticeable higher pitched whine at highway speeds - 70 or 80. Has anyone else noticed this? I'll try adjusting the tire pressure as well. Anyone have any thoughts on the best pressures for these tires?

One other thing to watch out for: the stick-on wheel weights were removed by a screwdriver-wielding lummox. I now have several small gouges on each of my four of rims where the weights used to be. I wish I had arrived a half hour early and removed them myself in the parking lot. What a pisser that folks don’t respect another man’s rims. Anyone else have this happen?

[jim1969]

What about the guys that had either the pirellis or the toyos put on a few months ago? Any observations? I'm going to wait until January to get new tires. Waiting to hear from you guys in the snow.

[SUBE555]

My Toyos are still in tip-top shape. Actually I'm going to add a little more air to them since it's dropped several degrees lately. The P4's have done rather well in most conditions. I know the brakes are really good though as they can overpower the tires in the wet after it starts raining and the oils come through for that first little bit.

I've got over 5000 miles on them and still very happy with them. :)

[jim1969]

Are they more noisy that the OEM Potenzas?

[AWD-Turbo]

I have had pzero nero m&s (stock size on stock rims) for a couple hundred miles now, so I think they’re broken in. The extra grip over the re92 is immediately noticeable at low speed where the steering is stiffer. Through some moderately spirited driving, I’ve gotten the re92’s to slide a bit. I haven’t gotten the pzero’s to slide at all yet. When going into turns, the pzero’s definitely seem to grab harder. I guess this is the combination of a stiffer sidewall and better compound. No ABS lockup with the new tires, and braking seems noticeably stronger. General ride quality is a little stiffer (not bad at all). No extra tire hum or noise either. As far as tramlining, I have noticed a little bit on severely rutted pavement. Its quite rare for me, and fairly minor. As long as they’re passable in the snow, I’ll be a happy customer.

[jim1969]

What is tramlining? I've seen it mentioned but I'm not sure what it is.

[AWD-Turbo]

Thorough explanation
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/general/tramlining.jsp

[Rimfaxe]

What tire pressures are you using in your Neros and Toyos?

[AWD-Turbo]

38 front, 36 rear